Kishore Vs Rafi Debate – What Does It Say About You?
A rare image courtesy of DownMelodyLane.com.
I had opted to drop writing about the Kishore vs Rafi debate in 2008, thus hoping to put an end to the feud in my own weblog, at least. However, this severely handicapped my ability to speak anything about the Hindi movie songs from the bygone era, something I couldn’t think of living without. So, I disown my own resolution in 2009 now. Much better to have the Kishore vs Rafi battles than not having to speak anything, or carrying a fake diplomatic face around …. lol …. I can see the barrage coming from both the Rafians and KK-fans, and also the tough moderation job ahead for me here!
But, there is a better reason why I decided to take this KK vs Rafi plunge this time. Surely much better than boasting about one’s favorite singer (KK in my case). Hope to see the readers making useful observations at the end. The crux of my today’s post: The two warring sides in the Kishore vs Rafi feud mostly belong to two contrasting ideologies and mindsets. The element of contrast involves not just in the music they would listen to, but also in the societal, cultural and political leanings they come from. They would always have two broadly defined characters. In fact, one could even predict the individuality of a person based on whom they liked to listen more, Kishore Kumar or Mohammed Rafi!
Who Are Kishoreda Fans?
They are the anti-traditionalists, I suppose. They are the ones who love watching the barriers of cultural inhibitions and social norms being rolled over. They won’t mind hijacking rooftops and throwing stones from there, if that brought in a redeemed world order. They hate living in a hierarchy and being burdened with undue etiquette and red-tapism. They could be emotionally very strong and susceptible both. This leads into the positives and negatives for them, both.
Pros About Kishore Kumar Fans
They can easily connect with countless emotions and music both, without awaiting for its larger acceptance by the society. They can directly connect with the language of art, and have a one-to-one dialog with art forms/ artisans without awaiting for the world to acknowledge it as well. They would love fusion and experimentation in music and life both. Purity is the last concern for these tribesmen and women! They live informal lives and do so wholeheartedly. So much so that when it came to appreciating the various genres of arts and music, none could beat them. Of course, you need all those qualities in a globalized world.
And Their Flimsiness
Won’t easily be made to please. Would not care following norms and would therefore lack in reasoning often. For example, see them making “Kishore Kumar is GOD” like one-liners and that’s all. No doubt, my chest does also get puffed with pride reading all that. They could be impulsive, emotional and susceptible to provocations at times, but the world is not just about gatecrashing and diving sea-deep into RAGAs and emotions. This means their craving for a part of life, like Kishore Kumar songs in this particular case, might force them to miss out many others (read Rafi et all).
Kishore Kumar Bulldozed And Redefined Traditions
Main Hoon Jhumroo
Main Hoon Don
Khaike Paan Banaras Wala
Jaane Jaan Dhoondhtaa
Jai Jai Shiv Shankar
Khullam Khulla Pyaar Karenge
Dekha Naa Haaye Re Sochaa Naa
Roop Teraa Mastaana
O Meri Sharmilee
Tere Chehre Mein Vo Jaadoo
Haan Pehli Baar (video)
Diwaanaa Leke Aayaa Hai
Diye Jalte Hain
O Maanjhi Re
Meri Bhigi Bhigi See
Chingaari Koi Bhadke
Who Are Rafi Fans?
Traditionalists, I would say! They are the ones with a greater faith and patience in their establishments. They would not mind following etiquette and proven legacies. Newer ideas will have to wait and push harder for them to make any inroads. They would always enjoy living under a hierarchy. This would again lead into the positives and negatives for them.
Positives
Can boast to have a vast resource of proven ideas and music to rely on. Will have a greater knowledge-base to put forth their views. They can claim to occupy the soul of Indian society and its heritage. Rafi sang the classical Indian romance and its emotions, anyway.
Negatives
Outdated ideas. Out of synch from the contemporary world and themselves both….ha ha…couldn’t stop from showing my KK bias here. With the neutrality over now, let us have the war started…and in the due course hope to receive some intelligent comments as well.
Mohd Rafi Sang His Indian Heart Out
Chaudhvin Ka Chand Ho
Bahaaron Phool Barsaao
Madhuban Mein Radhika
Ke Aaja Teri Yaad Aai
Ye Reshmee Jhulfein
Mujhe Teri Mohabbat Kaa
Tum Mujhe Yoon Bhulaa Na Paaoge
Aaja Aaja Main Hoon Pyaar Teraa
Badan Pe Sitaare Lapete Hue
Kya Huaa Tera Vadaa
Likhe Jo Khat Tujhe
Khoya Khoya Chaand
Tere Dar Pe Ayaa Hoon
Kaun Hai Jo Sapnon Mein
Chaahungaa Main Tujhe
Jaane Vaalon Jaraa
PS - Exceptions do take place as well. My late dad was a pukka traditionalist, yet he liked admiring Kishore Kumar. Read my above suggestions with this aspect in mind.
do not argue in vain just hear the songs sung by both the singers like tum bin jaun kahan , janu meri jaan or geet pehle bana tha etc. you will clearly see how many times better kishore is than rafi. even god cannot sing any better ..kishore will always remain the all time best.
Rafi can be compared to great singer like Manna Dey….but comparision with Kishore is just a waste of time….Kishore is way below the rank…he cannot be compared with any of those great singers ike Rafi-Mukesh-Manna-Talat…Rafi is best..no doubt.
comparing rafi saab with kishore kumar is like comparing a r rahman with himesh reshammiyya.
I’ve often noticed utterly foolish remarks being made by respondents, if I allowed even an odd or two negative responses about either Rafi or KK. Kindly, keep your mouth shut unless you had something intelligent and constructive to offer into this thread. I may soon close this thread for any further comments, unless that happens.
Specially, those listening to AR Rahman, Reshmiya (both are mediocre to be precise) and others from the present generation of Bollywood musicians/ singers must keep their ineptness to themselves.
It is really surprising to see Rafi sahab being compared to fairy tale singers like Kishore Kumar. He was an average singer , nothing special about him. Rafi sahab is an institution in himself. He is the parameter which can be used to measure other singers. Kishore and company wiil have to be born again to think of coming close to The Emperor.
Guys, check out Russel Ahmed‘s statistics that led him to making the above comment. Wonder what was he smoking before googling for rafi vs kishore!
23 Aug 02:11:44 PM Chrome 5.0 WinXP 1024×768 Mumbai,
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http://www.google.co.in/search?rlz=1C1GGGE_enIN370IN370&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=rafi vs kishore
23 Aug 02:11:24 PM Chrome 5.0 WinXP 1024×768 Mumbai,
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23 Aug 02:06:13 PM Chrome 5.0 WinXP 1024×768 Mumbai,
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http://www.google.co.in/search?rlz=1C1GGGE_enIN370IN370&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=rafi vs kishore
I’ve yet to come across a Rafian that lands here not for any Kishore vs Rafi chatter. In contrast to that, most Kishoreda fans are least bothered about Rafians and their idol. KK fans are content with the music KK has left behind for them. The only reason for posting a thread like this one by a KK-fans website is the insecurity of Rafians, who keep on whining why Rafi wasn’t being considered the greatest by all. The net is full of that chatter, check out that.
Btw, this thread is about the psychology of Kishore and Rafi fans and not that about any comparison of the two singers. You should be able to understand this basic aspect, if you had even the slightest of the needed grey matter.
Before I learned classical music and did stage shows, I generally used to sing Kishore Kumar songs. Probably during that time I only admired Kishore and new bollywood singers.
Later when I learned Hindustani classical, slowly I could appreicate the perfectness of Rafi’s voice and exact “sur” that he could hit with perfect ease, my respect for Kishore Kumar’s natural talent notwithstanding.
Parallely, I realized how briliantly trained Manna Dey is and the really tough and classy songs he has sung, the natural vibrant of Hemant Kumar and also realized that Mahendra Kapoor also had the talent to be among the best like the ones mentioned above.
Ideally these greats should not be compared, each was unique in his own way. However between Rafi and Kishore I can infer that even the ones who do not understand much of music would admire Kishore, his voice had that uncanny mass appeal. But these people might like Himesh Reshammiya’s voice also!
Then there are people who understand music really well. They would appreciate Kishore and Rafi both but would probably like Kishore more because of that uncanny appeal that the great man had.
Then there would be people who can sing well and perform on stage. They would admire Rafi and Kishore both, slightly tilting towards Kishore.
But people who have learnt classical music and love bollywood music also would say that Rafi is probably a bit better in some ways, even though they would always wonder how someone could have a natural voice as good as Kishoreda had.
rafi is the best……………. nobody can compare rafi saab……………………………one moon, one sun, and one rafi saab………………………………..his voice is very melodious………………………………………………………….rafi is great………………….those who dont know what is music, those who are rikshahwala, autowala, coolie they like kishores voice……………
no one can compare rafi saab……he is uncompareble. and why are u rafis fan comparing rafi with a ordinary singer like kk……………. we are talking about rafi……mohd rafi. not a street singer like others. he is well trained and also god gifted voice………inface he is god. lata ji and rafi saab is a god of music……………………. sonu nigam, udit narayan, suresh wadkar, s.p , and others a big fan of rafi saab……………………….so please rafi fan dont compare rafi………. those who dont know what is music they comment against rafi in this poll…………………………….please be quite rafis fan…. those who are insecure about his idol they comment in this poll………………………………………………..rafi saab is greatest singer in universe……………no one can compete with him. he is shahenshah…………..and kishore is king……………
Let me help you ‘dev’, since you seem to be highly lacking in the ability to convey yourself. When you say “rikshahwala, autowala and coolie”, you mean to suggest the lowest denomination of the Indian society. Which further tells, as per your own assesment, that your favorite playback singer did/ does not have any influence over vast Indian tracts. If a musician can’t even influence ‘coolies’ (in your own lingo, since I even respect them for their down-to-earth existence and views), then he should be a ‘Chowkidar’ and not calling the shots inside the studios!
As far as I know, Rafi’s magic worked irrespective of all the social barriers, as did KK’s, hence exposing your shallow grip over music and its social ramifications, both. At the same time, what do you mean by ‘street singers’? As far as I know, a wealth of talent goes wasted across the Indian streets. But, to know that you must have something inside your skull, which I doubt you would ever have, looking at your call for boycotting this poll….This poll?! Hey bhagwaan!….There is a vast difference between a poll and a well-formulated debate, buddy! You need ‘AKAL’ to carry out the later!
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PS – Can’t stop ROLFing, whenever I see Sonu Nigam, Udit Narayan, Suresh Wadkar, H Reshamiya and a few others that I don’t even seem to know being thrown around in Rafi’s defence. Rafi deserves better guys, please don’t demean him to such lows!!
no one can compare rafi saab………………………….he is uncompareable……………. those who had no knowledge about music…………they only can say these things like u adna or adnin… who ever u are……. some people believe in god and some dont………………. and those who debate abour rafi with an ordinary dhobi ghat singer they are insecure about their idol…….. oh……….so sad bechara………………….but dont worry mad people say others that u have no akal…………..but people dont care about them……………………………….bye bye adnin………………………….u start giving gali galoch carry on…………….i will not reply u further………………………………….because dog barks people dont care……………………………….carry on………..why r u silent………………..carry on give gali…….
dev, why should I abuse you? You need sympathy and not being abused around. But yes, I did laugh at your previous messages, and have also allowed your comments only so that the others could have some fun too.
There is another KK-Rafi thread, which suits much better for your outcry. Even then, I wouldn’t allow any demeaning remarks about the two fan-followings, you should know that (remember the reference of ‘rikshahwala, autowala and coolie’ as a beginning). You need being taught some TEHZEEB first, before even being allowed to opine about KK and Rafi.
“no one can compare rafi saab………………………….he is uncompareable……………. those who had no knowledge about music…………they only can say these things like u adna or adnin… who ever u are”
Although in a very poor manner, you personify the Rafians I’ve spoken about in my above blog post. Have you ever heard of a ‘Kuen Kaa Medhak’, dev or devi whoever you are (I suspect you to be a devi, though, in the way you have been hanging around)? Beside, your language gives away your immaturity, which I pity at.
————
Of course, your unbecoming comments won’t be allowed anymore, whether you made one or not.
PS – I wouldn’t even call you a dog. You are a CHEENTEE!
Really liked ur article. I’m in the Kishore Kumar category. However, it should be noted, I am an 17yr old Bengali Hindu living in UK, so the bias will be there (Saurav Ganguly is my hero). However, i think as humans we all have our imperfections, Kishore Kumar wasn’t trained, and when he sang it was more than singing, it instantly connected to you. I grew up on his bengali songs (even though i don’t know Bengali or Hindi- I am a true “bideshi”) and the way he sang instantly connected with me when i reheard them at age 14/15. I think that’s the case of Kishore fans, theres something strange that we find compelling.
Rafi MAY be better, i really can’t be bothered to argue (forgive me for this….) but i find a sizeable minority of fanatical Rafi fans have a religious bias, and so will not bother, though i really enjoy some of Rafi’s latter year songs (Chand mera dil, o hasina, and jaanu meri jaan) the last one was with Kishore, and i actually enjoy Rafi’s part more.
I also lastly think, that Kishore Kumar was a mark of change (as u mentioned), both in personality and in terms of singing. With him, his fans felt the urge to go out and take on the world (hence my NRI affiliation). I feel this is why it is the young, head strong fiery youths that tended to go for Kishore Kumar
A Saha, nice knowing we have a common ground as KK-ans, and that too from two separate generations (am 40+). Besides, you have a fairly good take on music and life at 17, must also add.
I too occasionally like Rafi more than KK in a few songs they sung together, but that mostly due to the nature of compositions where KK has had little to offer as a performer. At the same time, it is the Rafians who think I’ve been demeaning their idol by writing these blog posts, which isn’t the case. For me listening to KK would be incomplete, if I decided to omit any other virtuoso, including Rafi, Mukesh, Manna Dey, Lata and Asha, from the bygone era.
Leaving aside that I appreciate KK’s genre more than anybody else’s, they are inseparable for me as a collective music conscience. If I had the means and power to store KK’s songs for the posterity, I would also keenly archive that of the others, including Rafi’s.
———-
PS – Why do KK-ans, including myself, like Rafi and Mukesh from their later years more often? Were it for better recording techniques or the growing mastery they had had over the playback singing, that I have not been able to conclude myself.
I enjoyed reading your blog, although, the general comments on Rafi fans are really rude, as u put it.
I am a hardcore fan of music and my personal favourite is Rafi sahab. I am brought up listening to Rafi sahab and Kishore da songs. But now when i recollect, and when i still continue to listen, Rafi sahab gives me the goose bumps which no other singers have evr been able to give.
Rafi sahab’s versatality can be attributed to his classical training, which makes him invincible in popularity. Here again I appreciate the fact that Kishore da gave him a fair competition with his natural talent.
I am not a person who generally comments on blog, but the degrading comments by my fellow Rafi Fans provoked me to write something to support the Legend whom I admire the most. (Madhuban mein Radhika, Duniya ke rakhwale, Mere mehboob tujhe…. I think these 3 songs are enough for Rafi to outsmart any other singer). Please note I am not referring just to Kishore da…
P.S>. My liking for Rafi sahab has nothing to do with my religion. I am a Hindu by all means.
There are two categories:
1. Those who understand music and listen not only for the sake of Shayari ( words) but sur and taal also.
2. Those who do not understand deep music but still love music and love what is easy to achieve.
First ones will like Rafi and second ones Kishore.
It is easy for anyone to sing Kishore songs, not of Rafi. if rafi songs are tried by an untrained singer, he/she will miss all difficult nodes. And the dream voice of Rafi will never come again. His presentation of song was superb… It is his insult to compare him with kishore.
‘It is his insult to compare him with kishore ….’
Anurag,
It is a stroke of bad luck and insult to have the music fans like you around. FYI, Kishore is the most difficult singer if somebody wanted to imitate him ever. I’ve found scores imitating Rafi to a very good extent, but never ever heard anybody getting closer to Kishoreda’s mastery. In fact, I’ve found it way easier to hum Rafi’s songs than Kishore’s all through my adult life. Hope the Rafians come out of their tiny worlds as soon as possible, for it is their senseless observations about the other virtuosos that evoke sharp reactions from the other side (even from those who like and respect Rafi).
Also to all those, who cry hoarse about Rafi’s so-called training, please get over your delusions as soon as possible. A typical KK fan has more ability to understand if any musical training had been able to achieve its intended goal or not. What the heck would any training do if the audiences failed to be emotionally aroused? Music is an art form and not any mathematical formula to be taught and passed on by getting the numbers/ algebra right.
To Rony who got deleted,
You are simply a moron. Learn to read with logic and common sense and talk in a civilized manner, even before dreaming to contribute here.
You should indeed be ashamed Rony,
But for your uncouth behavior and not because of your dime a dozen fancies about the rest here. Ironically, it is those who abuse the right to have the ‘freedom of expression’ are the ones who mostly cry foul about that when challenged. Shows your individuality, which is why I’ve learned to keep my cool while responding to an odd Rafian of your category, since I’d be ruining my own threads by allowing and starting to respond in kind to your ilk. Besides, there will be a bigger casualty in doing so; that of opening a floodgate of abuses for Rafi, a possibility we could live without for sure.
I’d still wait for the more intelligent Rafians to come forward and disclose the reasoning behind their appreciation for Rafi. Where do they stand in the social, political and individual strata? But I’m sure, none of the intelligent ones would ever want to search for the KK vs Rafi debates online – a hallmark of the majority Rafians landing here.
To all others,
Try posting your more caustic remarks in the other KK vs Rafi thread and you might have a better luck there. I have been allowing more blunt observations there, since I’ve made one myself by titling it Kishore Kumar – The Undisputed King! No allowing any unparliamentary words and expressions though, be cautioned.
Sheer voice quality & natural talent of kishoreda vs technical perfections, high vocal range and smooth singing of rafisaab. But there is certain sense of everything in kishoreda’s singing: vibrancy, seriousness (strong rather than weeping style in sad songs), romance (unimitable unique style) and youthfulness. To say kishore fans are law breakers is a rather funny conclusion, as there are number of his songs based on classical mould and traditional instruments like tabla. Needless to say kishoreda was modest enough to accept his technical limitations, although he has taken some effortless harkats in many songs, indicating his natural abilities, as he never took any classical training
‘To say kishore fans are law breakers ….‘
How did you arrive at this conclusion? That is funny in itself!
“They do not mind hijacking rooftops and throwing stones from there, if that brought back a redeemed world order for them.”
Which is precisely what separates the anti-traditionalist from a traditionalist. A key differences between challenging the establishment, fighting for a change and breaking the law and order.
admin, I’m revisiting this page because I thought of a similar kind of rivalry
Kumar Sanu and Udit Narayan
wonder what you can produce from these two singer’s followers
I have noticed that there is a sizeable minority who will support Udit due to Rafi and Kumar due to Kishore
sorry to derail thread, another debate which could be thought about
Welcome back A Saha. Just when I’d started wondering, if I should close this thread for good, you dropped in again ..
I’ve no idea about the Udit Narayan vs Kumar Sanu debates, but you know what …. I like Udit Narayan more than anyone else post Kishoreda’s passing away. He is the most gifted among his contemporaries. Besides, I personally dislike the Kishore kumar copycats having got used to his midas soundtracks.
At the same time, I also rate Kumar Sanu’s Aashiqui among the best song collections, I’d the privilege of listening to post KK.
It reminds me, I’ve yet to compile a song collection of the 1990s and 2000s, which I must take up as soon as possible.
maybe this website can get you started, it is a VERY long list
http://torrentz.eu/8508088f762cbaa3833b05bd2e97ee470aea19b9
i’m only midway through the b category, it has made the competition between Sanu and Udit very close, as I’ve heard some songs I’ve never heard before. Was an Udit fan, but I think depending on the songs, it’s hard to separate them.
There’s also a few nice Amit Kumar (and Kishore- though not his best, post 1985-2000) songs, who I’ve grown to liking, I know what it’s like to live in your father’s shadow, and it’s sad to see a career like Amit Kumar’s (who ironically was surpassed by Kishore’s clones).
Anyway slight digression. there was a nice video on youtube, Mere dil uttar (Laal Paree 1990) Lethal1985, what could have been if Kishore had been in the 90s. We can only guess….
Thanks for the list. I’ve already started googling through http://www.google.co.in/music. Incidentally, there is plenty of the music you may wish listening to, but not the same male playback in the 90s after KK has passed away. Sad to have the Gulshan Kumar blot on Nadeem-Shravan, since they seem to have given pretty melodious numbers.
KK had some very average songs at his fag end – mostly due to what he would be offered in those days (a sign of that time and its music) – but he also would have a burst of his usual stuff in-between. He had once told an interviewer that it was becoming difficult and stressful to sing by the day, since he lacked the stamina he enjoyed earlier. And you could notice the effort he often did for his final recordings. I doubt, he would have continued to sing in the 90s, but a KK at his prime would have made a huge impact in the 90s, indeed!
Amit Kumar did not have anything different to offer – his biggest handicap. He needed to deviate early from his own father, which he failed to do so.
Hey Kk fans!! we shouldn’t waste our time to make such arguments with a subject! Rafians also wasting their time.. Arrey simple yaar!! whether anyone agree or not! No doubt, rafi is a great playback singer who is the origin of male playback singing! But Kk himself is a subject! Play back singing is a part of his carrier. He is a actor, music director, film director, producer, lyricist, dramatist, comedian, buffonery stage performer, serious, eccentric, depressing, polygamist, downright, moody, whimsical .etc.. All in all is an Interesting character. But Rafi is merely a singer like others. What kind eventful moments encircled with rafi like Kk…..??
I’m telling a funny incident of Kk..’Once, rafi had a duet song recording with kishore kumar. Kk reached early, while rafi was late. Kk never needed to do rehearsal in that way what a singer suppose to do. So he was usually busy with his funny activities with other artists in studio. When rafi was about to enter through the corridors, he got startled while he listened that, he himself was singing inside while he was just entering. After getting inside he learned, Kk was singing in ditto rafi’s voice. Kk said, if rafi would n’t’ve come, he himself thought to sing the rafi’s part in rafi’s voice. So, this is ‘Kishore kumar’.(Sanghatik Lok chilo Bhogoban).
You should’nt compare this person atleast with any artists! He is Expectional who mistakenly alighted in this earth for first & last time!!
(“Remember, rafi is a gr8 gr8 gr8 artists who technically learned everything! But he is neither a untrained singer nor a Interesting character & versatile genius! This is the difference!!!!!”)
how can u even compare those two?????????????????????????????????? its like comparing a crow to a nightingale !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Jay, you are a joker and incompetent to be debating here. This is how you landed into this thread:
(Statcounter.com entry …. having some issue hyper-linking the phrase he came searching for, but it could be noticed, anyway.)
18 Aug 03:56:11 PM Firefox 5.0 WinVista 1280×1024 Maisuru,
Karnataka, India Nib (national Internet Backbone) (117.201.201.75) [Label IP Address] proaudience.com/2009/01/kishore-vs-rafi-debate-what-does-it-say-about-you/
http://www.google.co.in/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=N4f&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&channel=np&q=who is better rafi or kishore&oq=who is better rafi or &aq=0&aqi=g1&aql=&gs_sm=c&gs_upl=21552l21552l0l23656l1l1l0l0l0l0l98l98l1l1l0
The only reason your comment is being allowed is, because I wanted the rest to have a glimpse of your mental ineptitude (funny that you call names to the past Hindi playback greats), since this debate itself deals with the psychological aspect of the KK and Rafi fans.
@Anirban,
That was funny, and a very intelligent way of hyping KK without dishonoring Rafi’s own stature.
Hello friends,
I had always been a Mohd. Rafi fan, since I was a kid. Like my parents and friends, I, obediently followed the tradition to listen and admire rafi and only rafi. His “Makhmali awaaz” was always a treat to my ears. I would sing his songs at the school and with friends. People liked me because I was eventually, if not easily. able to hit those “high surs”. I was admired.
But, then I had chance to listen to Kishore da`s songs. I was moved! His voice was uniquely LARGE. The base in his voice was incredibly deep, unlike any other singer. His voice was inimitable. Such strong voice, reflected pronounced masculinity. His songs like ‘Hal Kya Hai Dilon Ka’, ‘Phoolon ke rang se’, ‘Aapke Anurodh Pe’ ‘Kuch To log kaheinge’ and many others, are great examples of his talent. You would see many singers singing Rafi`s songs, giving him a good enough tribute. There are sonu nigam, shabbir and many others who are fairly good at it. But Kishore Kumar was UNIQUE. No one in the world has such a tremendous throw and solidarity. AND now we can just IMAGINE what kishore da could have done if he was classically trained from his childhood. His voice would have broken the boundaries and CONQUERED the world!!
The khanak in kishoreda`s voice was a god-gift and the almighty has not given even one-tenth of that charismatic resonance that kishoreda was rewarded with.
Conclusively, I hope and pray that the rafi`s fans break their old bias for an hour and just listen to the songs I have recommended above! Do not banish kishore da`s talent without even weighing them fairly. And as for Rafi, he has been my guru, idol, teacher, god and always will be.
Thank you.
I perfectly agree with Mr. A Saha’s comments. Rafiji definitely had a sweet and charming voice but KK’s voice was no bad. Why do people not understand that voice is after all a gift of God, & NOT A PERSONAL ACHIEVEMENT. Its like Mukesh Ambani saying a beggar-”See I travel by personal aeroplane, you stupid have to go on feet.” Is it Mukesh’s credit that he inherited millions??(I don’t talk of Dhirubhai. Moreover I consiously DO NOT compare KK with a beggar, its just an example). Coming to the point, when Rafi sang he didn’t make any effort, while KK effortfully suited his voice to the type of sonh he sang. (Notice the difference in his throw of voice when he sang songs in diff. moods- E.g. Roop tera mastana & Mere naina saawan Bhaadaon, which we donot see much in Rafiji, even experts cant deny, I bet.) So it is the effort that we admire in KK, those who boast about Indian culture should know that efforts are admired, not gifts.
Secondly Rafiji was trained. He LEARNT music from some source, KK had no learning on his part (It is analogous to the fact that Arjun is considered better then Eklavya, but Arjun had best teacher, whatever Eklavya was, he was on his own).
In his time “AVERAGE” KK was the most paid singer, more then “GREATESTS” like Manna dey & Rafi, as mentioned by some semi-literate. Rafians, not to any one else, ask this to yourself- Would you ever prefer to work with an “AVERAGE” and give him more money, when you have available a “GOD”?? Why today mostly only KK’s songs are remixed, if Rafians claim a total versatility of Rafiji??
(IT IS AN ESTABLISHED FACT THAT KK WAS PAID MORE THAN ANYONE ELSE, THAT TOO AT THE TIME WHEN BOTH MANNA DEY AND RAFI WERE ACTIVELY SINGING, I DONOT TELL OUT OF MY PERSONAL WHIM, MIND WELL).
KK & Rafi were compliments of each other.
both are have different quallities but i prefer rafi than kishore because rafi could all types of songs he knew the all type of music his voice suit to everyone. but on the other hand kishore was also a good singer. but the first choice of all the musician was rafi
Kishore & Rafi I would say that i agrre with those who say Rafi was incomparable. How can you compare a singer od Rafi qualities what a vast range he had. I would like to tell admin.
To note following points. I am not just talking but giving you the proof.
1. O Duni ke rakhwale & Man tarpat hari Darshan ko aaj.
Could Kishore have sumg those sonsg or Bhajans . No body on earth could have imagined
that the person singing ” Man tarpat hari darshan ko aaJ ” is a Muslim . He sang like a very learned Pandit. Full credit to Naushad ji also.
2. could kishore had sang for Johny walker ” Sar to Tera Chakraye ” In Johny Bhai style.
It was the single most greatness of Rafi saheb he could sing for a character in his style.
He could sing ” :Hum kale hai to kya hua Dilwale Hain” IN Mehmood Haydrabadi accent.
3. He could sing For shammi kapoor in the way shammi ji gives jatkhas and nakhras.
It perfectlt matched him.
4 Only singer who sang for 3 generations Sang for Grandfather Prithvi Raj Kapoor than his sons Raj kapoor, Shammi Kapoor & Shashi kapoor and then for their sons Rishi kapoor & randhir kapoor and I am 100% sure had he been alive would have sung for Ranbir kapoor. what a golden voice 3 generations changed . But the immortal voice remained unchanged.
5 Thwn last but noy the least sang for kishore kumar what more can be said kishore could not siing the song “ajab hai daastan teri E zindgi:” given by shankar jaikishan and ultimately Rafi shaeb had to sing for kishore and that is ultimate for me. How can you compare both
‘How can you compare Rafi ….’ …. The most common refrain and defense among the Rafians online. What does it indicate? …. A sense of surprise and pity at the non-Rafians, or a knowledge about music among their ranks? Simply answered, nothing of this nature. If anything, it only describes how little do you know about music and how insecure you are made to live in a world of countless talents …. a slight nudge and your card-house is flattened! My above blog-post was dedicated to this very aspect among the Rafians.
The same could be spoken about Rafi’s so-called ‘vast range’. It only bares the shell of ideas, emotions and life you have been confined to. Most of the ‘proof ‘ provided by his fans has little or no value in the eyes elsewhere; i.e. the KK-camp. In fact, he (Rafi) has sung much more and much better than most of you ‘half-baked’ learners seem to be knowing about him. Besides, you could always have several KK songs for each Rafi song that won’t have a match by the later. It’s an endless argument.
‘No body on earth could have imagined that the person singing ” Man tarpat hari darshan ko aaJ ” is a Muslim.’ …. You are highly confused, sunil Kumar. Does KK in ‘Aye khuda har faisla tera’ or the much famed qawwal duo of Shankar-Shambhu sounded like Hindus when they performed? Rising above the religious, social and personal barriers is the most basic aspect in the performing arts. The same about Rafi providing playback to KK too. It sounds more like a joke after having seen KK’s legacy as a playback singer, nothing more.
Go through the following article by Sandipan Deb in The Indian Express – The King Is Not Dead – to know where Rafi (and his so-called vastness) stands in the eyes of the Kishoreda fans. A very apt analysis by Deb, I must say.
mohd rafi batter than kishore in any way
Here is a better version of what I wanted to convey;;;;;;;;;/-]
Kishoreda was a maverick. His voice had a eternal resonance and “Khanak” that was unique! Voice was uniquely deep and the throw, punch and power in his voice make him the most difficult singer to sing. Rafi was undoubtedly a fabulous singer but Kishore Kumar was pure genius. Here is an anecdote (story) I would love to share with you all.
I had always been a Mohd. Rafi fan, since I was a kid. Like my parents and friends, I, obediently followed the tradition to listen and admire Rafi and only Rafi. His “Makhmali awaaz” was always a treat to my ears. I would sing his songs at the school and with friends. People liked me because I was eventually, if not easily, able to sings those classical numbers. I was admired.
But, then I had a chance to listen to Kishore da`s songs. I was moved! His voice was uniquely LARGE. The base in his voice was incredibly deep, unlike any other singer. His voice was inimitable. Such strong voice, reflected pronounced masculinity. His songs like ‘Hal Kya Hai Dilon Ka’, ‘Phoolon ke rang se’, ‘Aapke Anurodh Pe’ ‘Kuch to log kaheinge’ and many others, are great examples of his talent. Kishoreda`s ability to sing such diverse moods and styles can clearly be witnessed in above songs!! Interestingly, just notice the change in timber and texture he brings singing these diverse songs- something which Rafi never did; he just sang with the same timber/texture. Kishore could sing all the way from his upper part of the chest like in “Aapke Anurodh Pe” (where his voice comes out with so much depth and yet, he doesnt run out of air!!), then his throat like in Hal Kya Hai Dilon (his vocal chord sounds like this huge rod with incredibly high radius!) and all the way up to his mouth in Pyaar Manga Hai Tumhi Se(where he just whispers and the romance spreads in the air!!). I challenge anyone to do justice to these songs! Kumar Sanu and Abhijeet just copy one little “pehlu” or “style” of Kishore`s versatilty (just make Kishoreda`s voice thinner by 50% and add some nasality in it and you get Kumar Sanu, Yodell-ish singing style that too with erratic consistency and you get Abhijeet). One little Rang of multi-coloured Kishoreda has made their lives!! Just think about it. You would see many singers singing Rafi`s songs, giving him a good enough tribute. There are Sonu Nigam, Shabbir, Mohammad Aziz and many others who are fairly good at it (who have even sung O duniya ke rakh wale, the hardest song Rafi ever recorded and infact, Sonu has done considerable justice) But Kishore Kumar was UNIQUE. No one ever had such a tremendous throw and solidarity. AND now we can just imagine what Kishoreda could have done if he was classically trained from his childhood. His voice would have broken the boundaries and CONQUERED the world!!
The khanak in kishoreda`s voice was a god-gift and the almighty has not given even one-tenth of that charismatic resonance that kishoreda was rewarded with, to anyone else.
Kishoreda, sadly, recoginzed his talent quite late, way after he was already dragged into acting by his elder brother, Ashok Kumar– and surprisingly enough, his acting skills are still admired. What a multi-talented individual he was indeed. But its sad that we lost him early.
Conclusively, I hope and pray that the Rafi`s fans break their old bias for an hour and just listen to the songs I have recommended above! And as for Rafi, he has been my guru and idol and I always will be his fan. But Kishore Kumar was, is and will always be uparalleled!
Thank you.
Fazal
@Fazal Ahmad,
That is a very well-formulated tribute to Kishoreda. But to my knowledge, you are posting this for the third time, with one of them disallowed by my on a non-KK thread. Would love to read newer ideas from you, since you have the ability to put forth the finer aspects of Kishoreda’s genius.
Hi admin,
Its not about new ideas. Neither is it about posting my ideas on other threads. In my opnion, the soul of the matter is too grand to even consider trivial things like these.
I really dont care about if people like my ideas or not. And non-kk fans apparently dont ever. So, their triviality kicks in. Why? They just run out of relevant answers. They just dont have any answer to my arguments.
Infact, the piece you have written up here is marvellous. I almost had tears when I read how beautifully you`ve put it all together.
But, we need to understand something here. Look, we are not doing this to prove a point or look down at non-kk fans. We are doing this to disclose and bring to light those great features that our beloved Kishoreda`s singing possessed and that some people dont tend to notice. Reason might be anything. May be those people are just too much in love with Kishoreda that they sort of enter a trance and ignore it. Or may be the other way round, that they prefer someone else and so deliberately, overlook those aspects.
I will try to spread the word as far as I can. Well, anyways. So, did you understand what I said in my last post. If you wish to actually understand what I meant, then pls follow what I said. Go to those songs I have mentioned. Re-read what I mentioned and listen to those songs. Its a divine pleasure, I tell you.
I so wish that Kishoreda was with us today. It would have been sooo great. I always wanted to meet him. Haha, it would`ve been fun. Infact, I would have requested him to sing with me. Fortunately, I can sing and I am not completely terrible.
Well, what can we do about it now? And you pls go follow up what I said and listen to them. And come up with your opnions on views. I would really respect your take on it, admin.
Thanks
Fazal
Nicely written, Fazal Ahmad. Obviously, I’ve listened KK extensively (and not just the songs you mention) and agree with most of your observations. My late dad had once told me that KK could even rhyme a letter, as if it was poetry and not any prose – so amazingly talented, he believed, the Bengali singer was.
As regards to your emphasis on not looking down the non-KK fans, I’d remind you of my earlier threads, where Rafi is described as the Lord Rama of the Hindi playback – the one who was called Maryada-Purshottam or the one who acted in accordance with the morally upright living – while KK was the more colorful divine occurrence Krishna, who set his own standards. Although Rama is called Anshavatar (partial human manifestation of the absolute divine force), and Krishna the Purnavatar (complete manifestation), both enjoy the same absolute divine status in the Sanatana/ Hindu belief. How much more could the Rafians be made to feel at home?! But, they have still chosen to blame me for having degraded Rafi and even called me and KK names at times. So, I’ve stopped to worry about them now.
i’m a bit late but its ok, i was just thinking that why someone will raise this comparison,it is not needed.
i would recall your memories that one day when it was asked to Manna Dey about Rafi saab, he said rafi was the better singer any day,
and why only Manna da when it was asked to KK once that what does he think of when his fans compare him against rafi,he humbly replied “only someone with no minds will compare me to a great singer like Raafi saab”.
its well known that KK had always been the dominant singer of Pancham da’s compositions,but one day he cacelled his recording sessions with KK,as it was being difficult to KK to sing a semi-classical romantic number.(referred to wikipedia for more info).
this clearly indicates that KK had a difficuty for singing semi-classical singing,as no one can deny Rafi had’nt.
and why every time people prompt that KK is great coz he did’nt learn music?? i dont see any greatness in this,if you can learn its good but if you dont it was not barred for you.even to learn you need talent and skills.
many people learn music but can everyone become Rafi? (no one can tuch KK as well)
according to BBc Rafi is the Greast singer of bollywood till date,and by stardust Rafi was the singer of the millenium!!
In one artical of the T.O.I.-In india Rafi’s voice is the considered as the voice of god!
and one more thing if you wanna take openion poll,during Rafi’s cemetry there were moer then 10000 people witnessed it. it was one of the biggest condolence ever seen in the history of india.
so my friend besides having a special corner for KK in my heart,i cant deny the fect that Rafi is the GREAST SINGER of all the times..!!
Dear musiclovers and kishore fans,
All gentlemen on this thread who are reading me, I want to bring something to light. You must have noticed that the kind of songs and music that are being made today. Its a shame. Quality music is dissapearing.
I think the only way we can help improve the quality of music today is to educate our children with good quality songs. We should expose them to the khazana of music that our predecessors legends have left us with . I have noticed that youth today does not even know about legends like Rafi saab, Kishoreda and Mannadey. I mean, literally young generation doesnt even know the “names” of our legends. Infact, they find it old-fashioned when an old melody is played in front of them. Why? Thats because they have never been taught about these legends by their parents. Its very shameful.
I think the only way is to expose our children with this quality music at an early age, so that they develop an interest and love for these legends. Its then that they would be able to understand that whats quality music.
I hope all of you gentlemen here are with me for this cause. If we want to preserve our music and prevent it from getting effected by westernization then, we all need to do our duty and propagate this into the life of today`s generation.
Thanks and Adaab!
Fazal
@vikram singh,
Very boring indeed. Check out my answer to sunil kumar as a beginning, if you want to understand why it is so.
“only someone with no minds will compare me to a great singer like Raafi saab” …. only the most mindless in kind would like to believe in that. KK’s humbleness could not be construed as the final truth. In fact, someone’s humbleness should not even be taken as a half truth. Btw, I’ve seen people quoting the same Pancham as describing Rafi’s playback highly lacking compared to Kishore Kumar. Whether he spoke that or not doesn’t matter In 2011. You need your own mind to grasp and debate music, and not what the others spoke regarding each other. Strangely though, I’ve yet to find a truly intelligent/ alert Rafian in my own KK vs Rafi chats. None of them could comprehend, for sure, what this particular thread was all about.
@Fazal Ahmad,
Excellent thoughts! I’ve the same personal agenda behind my blogging and debating about the bygone era music. My aim would be to help galvanize support and the needed resources for achieving this target, if I could through my efforts in some manner.
Kishore Da was a Rafian..
Kishore da’s voice had high bass. He was very good for low pitch songs. But this is a very small criteria to judge singing. And is the only thing in which Kishore was better than Rafi.
So, some songs may sound better in Kishore’s voice.
While Rafi was best when potential, versatility and mature emotions in the singing are compared.
That is why, Kishore Da may sound better in ‘Jaanu meri Jaan’, ‘Ye sham mastani’ and few songs like this.
But no one can imagine ‘Aji ruth kar ab’, ‘O duniya ke rakhwale’, ‘Na ja kahin ab na ja’, ‘Main jatt yamla pagla’, ‘ramaiah wasta waih’ and most of the songs in Kishore’s voice.
And even Kishore knew these things. The great person, admitted himself when he was offered to sing ‘Nafrat ki Duniya’, that he cannot bring up the proper emotion required for the song. And its his greatness only that he suggested Rafi’s name.
For a genre of songs, Kishore was best. He was a good singer with some special ability.
But Rafi masters most of the abilities, when compared to other singers (not only Kishore Da). Sonu Nigam picked only a few of them and became a master himself.
I like Kishore Da very much.
But at the same time I agree with the fact:
“If you are comparing Rafi with Kishore, you will realize someday or other that,
If Kishore is 512GB, Rafi is only 250GB. But then, Rafi is a Laptop and Kisore is a hard disk only.”
“Kishore da’s voice had high bass. He was very good for low pitch songs. But this is a very small criteria to judge singing. And is the only thing in which Kishore was better than Rafi ….”
That is an outlandish observation, keeping in mind KK’s countless high-pitched renderings within his own bass range. On the contrary, his ability of invoking a vast range of moods and notes, was, in fact, among his key strong points. By that logic, the “effeminate and mournful voice” of Rafi, as so aptly described by Sandipan Deb in a 2007 article, should not have any significance either, isn’t it?
Besides, the Rafians seem to often confuse about what the quality of being versatile means. It surely does not mean the count of moods and ragas one could sing, but the ability to do it so convincingly, and none would compare with KK’s vividness in this regard.
Whatever you told about kishore da is correct upto good extent. But what you said about Rafi is totally wrong!
When I was young I used to listen Kishore’s song very much. Even now I like many of his songs. Best thing about them is they are easily digestible. The thing you find effeminate and mournful in Rafi’s voice is what I like his voice for. Its called ‘Simplicity’. To bring up real and mature emotions you need the simplicity. Its the simplicity of the person, for which it is said Rafi can sing ‘I Love You’ in 101 ways. And its truth, but you need be simple like him to get that thing. You cannot bring up these things by jumping and laughing while singing.
Friend one more thing, I dont listen to the songs while comparing singers, I listen to the singing only.
I dont know what collection of Rafi you have listened to. Because, his songs are not only mournful. He has got so many joyful songs, the songs with real joy (not the childish and immature joy).
Now I am sure that you would be liking the Kishore of 70′s the most.
But I am fan of Kishore of 60′s and 70′s. I find him much better.
Because, 70′s is the time when deterioration started and it is going on yet.
If I was making a comparison like you are doing I would’nt have preferred Rafi or Kishore Kumar. Instead I would have preferred Himesh and Atif.
Please, develop ears to find the real moods and notes.
Sorry, but your analysis was baised. Otherwise you would not have made a comparison bw Rafi and Kishore, because its not acceptable only. (b/w Rafi and Manna De is somewhat acceptable).
Listen to Rafi songs and you will find the comparison foolish.
I have already told you that Kishore himself was a Rafian. And its not a joke, its the fact.
Those of you who compare Rafi Sahab and Kishor Da are a bunch of retards.
Both of them are unique, and they both have their own beauty. One should not compare them. How can you compare ‘Gulaab’ and ‘Rajanigandha’? For me, there is no way to compare these flowers as they both are unique in their own ways. So, those of you who waste your precious time comparing these incomparable singers/artists, individuals…. it is time for you to grow up a little, and learn to appreciate them both for their uniqueness and individuality.
I love them both…..
“Listen to Rafi songs and you will find the comparison foolish ….”
asad, now since you have started degrading your language, it would be easier dealing with you. You are the typical ‘retarded, weak-hearted Rafi-wallah’, I’ve spoken about in my above blog post, who is so much out of touch from the common sense that no reasoning could help them ease out of their delusions. FYI, most KK fans hardly give a hoot about comparing him with anyone else leave alone Rafi. Neither do they care if any “aira gaira natthu khaira” is heaping praise on somebody else like the Rafians do so. The only reason you would be reading such threads in a KK-centric blog is your own tribe, which spams the internet crying foul if any other singer was being keenly debated and praised. I’d decided to have some fun with your kind when starting this blog, hence these KK vs Rafi threads. But while doing it so, I’ve also met some very interesting and intelligent people. Unfortunately or fortunately, most of them happened to be KK-wallahs.
The 70s rightly don’t interest you, since Rafi was shown his right place during those years. Although, not the same lyrics as in the 50s and 60s, the 70s did have some of the most enthralling music ever produced by the Hindi cine industry. Beside, KK, Rafi and Mukesh, all three were into their 40s and hence at their peaks …. the 40s are always special in a performer’s life, as per my own observations. The degradation of the music and lyrics, both, was evident by the mid-80s though. And kindly do not talk about the simplicity of voice and the maturity of emotions. You lack the maturity to convey it yourself. Rafi’s unwillingness to give away the technicalities he had thrived upon earlier, was a key reason for his downfall in the 70s, when a more versatile playback became the need of the hour. Simply because Rafi couldn’t enter the characters he sang for without being aided by the “right” technicalities, didn’t make him any simpler by any and all means. I’ve spoken this earlier and repeat it once again that many KK-fans know the intricacies of Rafi much better compared to most of the Rafians, I’ve been across. Having been open to the newer ideas in life and music makes them more reasoned, as stated by me in my above blog-post.
You are better suited to speaking only about Himesh Reshammiya and Atif perhaps, the kind of singers I’d rarely care for.
I’ve been considering to close the KK vs Rafi threads for long, since very few insightful observations have been made in a long while. I’d like to extend the last courtesy of commenting to the Rafians though, so unless there was a strong provocation, I’d soon wind up these threads, and hopefully start the whole debate with a new perspective. It is up to the Rafians, if they wish ending on a friendly note or not.
admin:
Haha! Why are you getting so frustrated at my comment. In fact, my comment was not on your blog post, or on you. It is indeed very well written from your side. So cool down. I’m just commenting on some of the replies that I’ve read here. My ideas and words are not borrowed… thats just what I think. And I think that these masters shouldn’t be compared. You are not above them to compare them. And again, I’m not telling it just to you, but to everyone. And writing stuff like (EDITED SINCE IT IS IRRELEVANT NOW) only degrades you and your blog. So, grow up. Shayad aap ye nahin jaante honge, ki main khud Rafi Sahab aur Kishorda aur Mukesh Sahab se face to face mil chuka hoon aur baatein bhi ki hain. Thats my good luck that I was there and posted in Bombay. Aur ye tab ki baat hai jab aap shayad paida bhi nahin hue honge.
Rafi aur Kishore dono apni apni khushbu bikherte hain aur kuch log sirf unhein compare hi karne mein rah jaate hain. Khushbu ka anand naihin hutha paate.