Kishore Vs Rafi Debate – What Does It Say About You?

Kishore Vs Rafi

A rare image courtesy of DownMelodyLane.com.

I had stopped writing about the Kishore vs Rafi (or Rafi vs Kishore, as the Rafians might like calling it so) debate in 2008, thus hoping to put an end to the ongoing feud in my own weblog, at least. However, this severely handicapped my ability to speak anything about the Hindi movie songs from the bygone era, something I couldn’t think of living without. So, I disown my own resolution in 2009 now. Much better to have a Kishore vs Rafi feud in my weblog than not having anything to speak about, or carrying a fake diplomatic face around… 🙂 I can see the barrage coming from both the Rafians and KK-fans after this, and also the tough moderation job ahead for my peace loving soul here!

But, there is a better reason why I decided to take this Kishore vs Rafi plunge this time. Surely much better than boasting about one’s favorite singer (KK in my case). Hope to see readers making useful observations as this debate builds up. The crux of my today’s post is that the two warring sides in the Rafi vs Kishore feud mostly belong to two contrasting schools of thought. The element of contrast involves not just in the music they might be listening to, but also in the societal, cultural and political backgrounds they might be coming from. They would always fall in two broadly-defined human categories because of this separation. In fact, one could even predict about their individualities depending on whom they liked listening to more, Kishore Kumar or Mohammed Rafi!

Who Are Kishoreda Fans?

They are anti-traditionalists and anti-status-quoists, as far as my assessment says. They are the ones in a society who love watching the barriers of cultural inhibitions and social norms being  pulled down. They won’t mind taking to the rooftops and throwing stones from there, if that brought in a redeemed world order. They hate living in a hierarchy and being burdened with undue etiquette and red-tapism. They could be emotionally very strong and susceptible as well in the same proportions. This brings out their positive and negative aspects in equal terms.

Pros About Kishore Kumar Fans

They can easily connect with a wide range of  emotions and music genres, without awaiting for the others to start approving them. They can directly connect with a language of art, and appreciate art forms and artisans without awaiting for the world to acknowledge them first. They seem to love a fusion of ideas in music and life in equal measures. Purity is the last concern for such diehard music fans! They live informal lives and do it so wholeheartedly. So much so that when it comes to appreciating the various genres of arts and music, none other will be able to beat them ever. Of course, you must have all such qualities and more in a globalized world, anyway.

They Can Be Ignorant About Their Own Heritage

Since they can appreciate any form of music, does not mean they would easily be pleased by any musical work or genre. Some of them can be hard nuts, in this way. Besides, their defiance of norms would obviously lead them into a disconnect from their own historical and cultural heritage. They can be impulsive, emotional and susceptible to provocations, thus resulting into the roadblocks for their lives.

Kishore Kumar Bulldozed And Redefined Traditions… Some examples based on the inherent moods of his songs…

Main Hoon Jhumroo

Dekha Naa Haaye Re Sochaa Naa

Roop Teraa Mastaana

Jaane Jaan Dhoondhtaa

Jai Jai Shiv Shankar

Khullam Khulla Pyaar Karenge

O Meri Sharmilee

Tere Chehre Mein Vo Jaadoo

Haan Pehli Baar

Main Hoon Don

Khaike Paan Banaras Wala

Who Are Rafi Fans?

Traditionalists and status quoists, I would say! They will be the last ones to rise against their own establishments. They would not mind following etiquette and proven legacies. Newer ideas will have to wait and push harder for getting their approvals. They would always enjoy living under a hierarchy. This would again lead into the positives and negatives of their lives in equal measure.

Positives

Can boast to have a vast resource of proven ideas and music to rely on. Will have a greater knowledge-base to put forth their views. They can claim to occupy the soul of Indian society and its heritage. Rafi sang the classical Indian romance and its emotions, anyway.

Negatives

Outdated ideas. Out of synch from the contemporary world and their own common sense… Couldn’t stop myself from donning a KK-mask here 🙂 With the neutrality over now, let us have the Kishore vs Rafi war started started yet again…and in the due course hope to receive some intelligent comments from the Rafians as well.

Mohd Rafi Sang His Indian Heart Out… Some very obvious examples…

Chaudhvin Ka Chand Ho

Bahaaron Phool Barsaao

Madhuban Mein Radhika

Ke Aaja Teri Yaad Aai

Ye Reshmee Jhulfein

Mujhe Teri Mohabbat Kaa

Tum Mujhe Yoon Bhulaa Na Paaoge

Kya Huaa Tera Vadaa

Likhe Jo Khat Tujhe

Khoya Khoya Chaand

Tere Dar Pe Ayaa Hoon

Chaahungaa Main Tujhe

PS – Exceptions can and do also take place in the real life. My late father was a pukka traditionalist, and a Kishore Kumar admirer as well. Read my above observations with this aspect in mind, for the same reason.

109 thoughts on “Kishore Vs Rafi Debate – What Does It Say About You?”

  1. Boy, what a great observation!!!!! I am a Kishore Kumar fanatic too…….
    I like Rafi saab’s songs of the 60s but not after that, although I love Kishoreda’s songs even from the period when he was only an actor and primarily sang for himself and Dev saab…… Once Kishoreda reached the centerstage with Aradhana, it was clear who the best in the business was…….. A majority of singers even today follow a style in playback singing that was essentially defined by Kishoreda!!!!!!!!!!

  2. Thanks Praveen! You might have noticed the subtle variations in sounds and words that divide any two major languages of India and that of elsewhere. I have, while working with North Indian and Keralite stage actors in the past, noticed how the two can not pronounce each other’s words and sounds the way it may be desired from them. “Ka”, “kha” and “ga” of Hindi is spoken something like “ika”, “ikha” and “iga” in Malayalam. Similarly, the pitch of “a”, “aa”, “ei”, “ee” is not the same either. Yet they both form the collective basis of what we know as the Indian civilization, and its varying shades.

    In the same way, I find Md Rafi and Kishoreda fans fundamentally of two varying kinds – unable to comprehend and digest each other – and since it is about traditions and not languages, the Kishoreda fans rule, of course! They are the in-thing for the next thousand years…lol!

  3. I deleted some comments on being requested by those taking part in this debate, though I must assure they were good in flavor and the show must go on. So let me know your tilt now…traditionalist or otherwise…?

  4. Kishore Vs Rafi Debate – What Does It Say About You?…well it simply say something beyond local FM channels or that on being either side ,we r simply a lover of music(Thanx).

  5. Nice post. It is interesting how you tried to define the characteristics of the fans. Kudos to you for the attempt, even though it is a generalization. I have tried to write about it from a neutral perspective at http://satyansh.com/smf/index.php?board=4.0

    Don’t mean to deviate from the topic, but I wonder why people (in general) leave Manna Dey out of the picture. 🙂

  6. Satyansh, you will have to agree Kishore and Rafi were more versatile compared to Manna Dey or Mukesh. Movie makers deemed them better to portray various moods and all major cine stars of that era, which wasn’t the case either with Manna Dey or Mukesh. Besides, there are some regional folk and playback singers who can instill the same excitement with their class as the quartet mentioned above, yet they do not get recognized as much, since they never speak the language of the largest subcontinental audience – the Hindi/ Urdu/ Hindustani speaking one. So I guess, a combination of factors seem to be working in this case, and not merely someone’s virtuosity in a “particular” fashion. However this generalization, if not taken in the right context, can lead into more complications for this debate now. Some Rafi fans must be awaiting to raise the issue of the so-called virtuosity vs popularity to further their notions. Ready to thwart that as well. Aa Jaao! 🙂

  7. plz evrybody go to listen ”Baharo Phool barsawo” If u know music nd u can feel d Innocent melody. thrz nothng 2 say.

  8. i think you are so one sided being a kk fan all your obervesation are preminded as u also said. but let me clear one thing what can u people get from comparing the two legends. they both blessed our souls with their soul full voice. everybody ve their own taste and likings so some find rafi more close to thier heart n some find kk.dont ever try to impose your likings on others.rafi and kishore were good friends being both as a singer they never did any comperison between them.infact kishor said himself that he admire rafi sahab most, and he got rafi sahab’s photo in his bed r oom.this clearly shows tthat they respect each others legecy. you poor people keep fighting about kk is better or rafi is better. they both are better in their own.its just a matter of your choice

  9. Come out with something better to read, parmar. I’ve heard this “KK admired Rafi most” many times over in the last few years. Your assumption that comparing KK and Rafi was akin to denouncing one or the other, or declaring them as mutual enemies is ridiculous in itself. Such notions, specially those coming from the Rafi camp, is the easiest way of avoiding logical debates, when confronted with an in-depth analysis. Stop pretending neutrality for god’s sake. This thread is for making good observations and sharing fresh ideas. And any sane-minded Rafian would see – notwithstanding if I was one-sided or not on KK’s side – I also spoke of where KK fans lack as music buffs, something they can easily cash in by targeting and enlightening us with their take on music in the due course. Give something better to read and not the usual moaning one can read at numerous places….I know you came by typing “Rafi vs Kishore debate” in google. My site stats say this. Many others come to my website the same way. So tell us, what you thought you were trying to do by searching “Rafi vs Kishore”? Better be honest in your actions, than pretending innocence nobody cares about.

    Hmm….I also smell you might be the same person who keeps posting in favor of Rafi with different nicks. I may be right or wrong in assuming this. But, in case you were indeed the one who likes showing his/ her love for Rafi through various nicks, then be informed you will do more damage than upholding Rafi’s image or Hindi music in general. Rafi’s or KK’s stature is not going to be decided by what we might say at an anonymous place such as this one. So, be rational and objective in your look out for “KK vs Rafi” threads.

  10. well, Sir,,,”sane-minded Rafian” this is not a matured approch by the owner of proaudiance site,,if we write only rafi kishore or kishore- rafi (on google)we find ur site but whats the need of word VS,,,,,,while writing rafi kishore without vs in between why can`t we look for admiration rather a fight,,,Yes I`m Rafian,,,,,as u r tilted towards KK, but this is not sufficient reason for me to hate u,,I admire u for many other post of urs,,,but I have observed u r great all over but u react bitterly when a person admires Rafi sahab with any reference of KK,,,u have right to praise kk as much as u want but leave Rafi saab apart(this is what I even say 2 my friends in college),,,,Rafi sahab`s fan are very emotional,while thinking of Rafi saab they don`t thik of anyone else and get lost in Rafi `s divine voice so they feel hurt while comparing,they respect all,and sometimes demand a little respect for someone like Rafi saab who`s such a simple,honest,soft heaqrted and pure human being,,,,listen to Rafi sahab`s song in teen deviya “kahin bekhyal ho kad” on dev anand,,,,,well I` said about rafi saab as I`m Rafi`s divotee and also I blv u know much about great kk….u have great poer in ur words so plz work on little on making bridge between the hearts,,thank u and wishes(sneha)

  11. well, Sir,,,”sane-minded Rafian” this is not a matured approch by the owner of proaudiance site,,if we write only rafi kishore or kishore- rafi (on google)we find ur site but whats the need of word VS,,,,,,while writing rafi kishore without vs in between why can`t we look for admiration rather a fight,,,Yes I`m Rafian,,,,,as u r tilted towards KK, but this is not sufficient reason for me to hate u,,I admire u for many other post of urs,,,but I have observed u r great all over but u react bitterly when a person admires Rafi sahab with any reference of KK,,,u have right to praise kk as much as u want but leave Rafi saab apart(this is what I even say 2 my friends in college),,,,Rafi sahab`s fan are very emotional,while thinking of Rafi saab they don`t thik of anyone else and get lost in Rafi `s divine voice so they feel hurt while comparing,they respect all,and sometimes demand a little respect for someone like Rafi saab who`s such a simple,honest,soft hearted and pure human being,,,,listen to Rafi sahab`s song in teen deviya “kahin bekhyal ho kad” on dev anand,,,,,well I` said about rafi saab as I`m Rafi`s divotee and also I blv u know much about great kk….u have great POWER in ur words so plz work on little on making bridge between the hearts,,thank u and wishes(sneha)

  12. My point was that we should not go the point that my likings are better than yours.my idiol is better than yours. stop arguing this all the time.and we can’t go anywhere battling here for our fouvrites.because what attracts you most can naver be the same for me and vice versa.and a point also is that how will it prove who was better.i dont want to fight for that. and dont say that i dont have any logical points to prove that who was better i ‘ve lots of point,but the question remains the same that being a kk fan u won’t agree with that.so all waist of time. if you are logical enough to except the right words without imposing your presumptions than i’m the one you are waiting for……………….come on lets start it…………………………………………………………………………………………..

  13. Parmar, you missed the point again. Read the thread title and post accordingly. This thread itself traces the psychological leanings that lead to KK vs Rafi divisions. Your statement, that I won’t be agreeing as a KK fan, adds nothing more to it. The very purpose of this thread is to find why we won’t be agreeing, either about music or in life both. Whether my indulgence in this debate is appropriate or not is your personal opinion. We won’t agree on it either. But, you can contribute by pointing out what (psychological aspects) drive KK and Rafi fans in how they behave…without abusing, or trying to shift the debate from its course. There isn’t any great scope for a chatter between us, since I have already made my stand pretty clear in my above post.

    You made me laugh Sneha. And that’s why I used “Sane-minded Rafians” (no one should take it literally though). All comments to my weblog require approval, since spamming (and occasional abuse to participants and the legendary singers both) is a major headache, and my online sessions start fairly late by IST. Besides, what made you think I won’t be trying to bridge gaps. But, bridges can not be made by hiding from the reasons that ask for them.

    I do accept the charge of carrying a little bit of bitterness in my replies on occasions, though. And I, as a KK fan, am proud of it. I have read many Rafians boasting online that Rafi was the greatest male singer ever to have been born. Now it’s the time to settle these scores.…lol.

    I wonder what makes the Rafians feel Rafi was being mocked or badly treated here. What better do you expect from a KK fan than the endless hours spent in analyzing and locating his music….you hyper-sensitive Rafians!

  14. I have a democratic solution for those unhappy with my observations. If you feel Rafi Saab’s (look I called him Rafi Saab…ab to khush?) talent was not being rightly projected through my writings (and it won’t since I’m a KK fan), then you can send me a well-written article, if you wish, showcasing your views about Rafi, and I shall post it as it is. The write up should not carry any provocation against other threads in this weblog, though you are free to declare Rafi Saab as the greatest male singer ever and KK a novice, I’ve nothing to do with that. All rights of that article and decisions about moderating comments (may be I’ll keep comments off to ward off trouble) will be with Proaudience.com, just to remind you.

  15. I would like to say sorry for being impatient,,,,sorry,,,,however, I would like to admit that your observation is nothing other than just a literal genious…no point to be unhappy,,,,and thank you for saab as a suffix for the saintly person like Rafi sahab…there is no point of placing Rafi`s suprimacy over anyone as it would surly hurt Rafi saab`s soul,Rafi saab used to concider music director as their guru and admited out of modesty, greatness of every deicated singer singer( no need of frown at ur head!!!)such Rafi as a human,really unmaterialistic fakir minded in the midst of most glamrous film indsutry,and this divinity is present in every raaga of him,and genious kishor da, how from deep inside heart he used to sing,,,why can`t be two most shining star in multistarred sky.Anyway best wishes for ur nice job…..A Rafian

  16. Hi!

    Thanks for your thrad. Enjoyable thread.

    Yes there are exceptions. Every aspect of the kishore kumar fans you listed were in me, an 18 year old bengali hindu boy who likes western food, video games, fancy clothes etc and yet I worship Rafi saab like a god.

    The only person apart from rafi saab i listen to regularly is kishore kumar…

    I do not like many of kishore’s romantic songs, but i still love quite a few songs of his namely from yaadon ki baraat,amar prem, kati patang, aradhana, guide, etc.
    I feel that he was ahead of his time in the 50’s 60’s…

    Rafi imo was timeless and could apply to any era even today, where Punjabi and Sufi are quite popular (tho i hate punjabi n sufi personally lol)

    I hate classical music and never resort to saying rafi is better as he was classically trained lol i love rafi for his ada, his range, his versatility, not for CLASSICAL training lol..

    regards,
    Sid

  17. thanks for this thread… i fully agree to your view on Kishore Kumar. I like Md Rafi as well, but if GOD gives me a choice… i shall choose to sing like Kishore.
    i was so surprised to know that in his childhood his voice was heavy and unclear and due to an accident, it got clarity and power. i wonder, was it just an accident or the divine himself preparing the gateway of musical fountain, no doubt that this incident is the rarest among rares.
    i used to learn classical songs in childhood. i remenber once my teacher told that without sadhana of previous births, none can do like Kishore.
    my personal openion is that, Kishore Kumar had an opened soul, he used to unite himself with the idea-feeling-emotion-meaning of a song and let them express as they are… while all other singer (including all greates) understand the mood and sing it. Kishore Kumar didn’t sing, rather allowed his soul to express as songs – and that’s made the difference along with power of voice, control etc. i remember, i read somewhere, Sri Aurobindo told that many people can reach to the divine but the divine chooses only few to pour himself. i think, GOD chose Kishore Kumar to pour music… just a personal openion 🙂

  18. @ raja,
    I second your observation, that something beyond playback singing and vocal chords occurred in case of Kishoreda. Must be pure divine intervention, no doubt! Same as well for the other legends (for the sake of (fake) neutrality I’ve vowed for….lol.)

  19. Reproduced from Mohammed Rafi Songs This Month

    To spsyed,
    It’s an honor to welcome music fans and Rafians like you. I hope, I’ll be able to listen from KK’s and Rafi’s kins as well, someday. At the same time, I’d refute the allegations my Kishore vs Rafi threads are often charged with by Rafi fans, that they aim at dishonoring Rafi’s legacy or dividing Hindi music fans into groups. No they do not, if you looked them closely. First of all, nobody is beyond critical scrutiny in this world. Neither Rafi Sahib nor Kishoreda. It’s up to an individual to think what they should debate and how they should do it. In my case, Kishore vs Rafi threads have achieved two goals. The first and more vocal of the two perhaps, is to take on those Rafians, who have a tendency of looking down at my favorite singer KK. But, I wouldn’t say I mean to seriously undermining them or have anything else but lighthearted fun on that front either (I’ve even proposed, they could send me an appreciation about Rafi, and I shall publish it as it is). The second and not so vocal, yet more significant one, is to bring various fan-followings under one roof. Threads of “This vs That” nature only help mend the best minds.

    My own observation suggests, the heritage of Indian Cinema and Arts in general has not been preserved, in the manner it should have been. Things they should/ could have documented for future generations have not been done. The onus of safeguarding works and mementos of the legends, finally rests on their kins I suppose, more so if they belonged to a lesser commercially successful category. Notwithstanding whom we might appreciate more at individual levels, Kishore, Rafi or Mukesh, it is the common heritage that makes sense, and I see this blog scoring positive results in that aspect, however small in nature. “Will fans go beyond debates and decide to physically intervene and safeguard the legacy someday”, is one more area I’d like to probe through my blogging in future.

  20. Eventhough I love both Rafi and Kishore,I give an edge to Rafi because of his voice and his effortless way of singing even high pitch songs..Eventhough Kishore also sings high pitched songs well,u could feel a slight strain and also his voice was also too masculine which was more suited to western type of songs which RD popularized..Rafi had that perfect soft voice which suited light playback singing so well..

  21. I would like to know that if Kishore was better than Rafi Sahab why then whould Kishore use Rafi’s voice in the song “Mana mora bavera”???

  22. @ahmad,
    You must understand the process of movie-making to know the reason of that. As regards to Kishoreda fans, that particular incident (of KK not being able to sing for himself) sounds shockingly hilarious! However, Rafians won’t be able to think out-of-box ever, however hard they might wish for it, as stated previously in this debate. 🙂

  23. EDITED/ 2009/08/18 12:57am

    This comment carried strong words against a Rafian and his alike who badmouthed Kishore, Mukesh and Manna Dey for praising Rafi. I’ve deleted it since then to accommodate the views of other Rafians (check out below )whose participation is valued by this author.

  24. Mr Mohan nice article,,but Rafi sahab`s fan are very gentle and try to imitate humbleness of surch pure hearted Rafi sahab. One person statement on the western part may be biased with national envy,,,,he used rafi sahab`s name may be he could have used someother name to show u down,,but plz modify ur last comment as all rafi sahab`s fan feel offended by ur last post….Sir, `I`ve seen many Indians,,especially from bangali origin who use slang for rafi sahab,,,but many more in bengal who love rafi sahab,,so it never mean all of that particular would be stated as rafi sahab hater,,,I`ve seen,,u can also see on youtube or other music site,,how many pakistani`s r there who worship Rafi sahab n also admire Kishore kumar…..
    So, I` being a Rafi divotee, request u to plz re-write ur comment about Rafi sahab fan….

  25. @Natalie,
    Why did it hurt your sentiments as a Rafian? It was meant for those who abuse singers other than Rafi (may be KK fans are equally abusive, accepted). Though, I did not find myself at peace in identifying his origin. I shouldn’t have brought in the geographical reference into this. That was uncalled for on my side.

  26. Oh my God!!!!
    You really deleted your words!
    Its something more than proaudience,great impact of Mr Pankaj Mohan`s modesty…..I visited this site many times before,and when I read that comment I felt sory for such a unpleasent appearence of someone who literally used bad words for Other singer ….As far as sentiments is concerned ,its the one point that was raised was that this kind of person really don`t love anyone,they just imitate what others do, so they behaved so ungenerous.Then they don`t deserve the words Fan”, but fanatics……. So real lover of Rafi sahab`s or That of Kishore kumar`s has nothing to do with this kind of person,,then there is no point of pointing out name of Real admirer of Golden Phase of Hindi music(in my case its Rafi sahab) with reference or realtion of such a noise creator.
    I answered as I was asked by admin,,but admin` s concern about either side of fans has diluted the word hurt in respect!
    Thank you!

  27. I feel little sacred while saying something over here,especially about Rafi sahab,,I sometime try to make out whether administrator of this site will get angry or not,,,,
    However,,,,admin really had made room for fans from both side,,,,,anyway I`ve a question to adimin,,Its my experience,,,fans talk absurd,,no matter even if the person is fan of Gautama budhha ,he may talk absurd,,,,,,so,,as far as this site is concerned have u ever scolded any kishore kumar fan on ur site for saying something absurd,ever….

    Ya ya I know,,u r going to tick off me for talking rubbish may be according to u ,as u loose temper any moment talking with rafian,,yet u can`t deny ur love for rafi sahab…
    anyway,,listen this song u`ll like,,,,in rafi sahab`s voice….
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kr73XZB3rAk

  28. Sneha,
    I hardly find any Kishore Kumar fans sneaking in here. Very few of them feel the desire to leave comments even if they do drop in. There are several reasons to it. One of them is, my extensive use of “Kishoreda” instead of “Kishore Kumar”, the keyword most KK fans would type in to grab his links.

    Secondly, whatever they wish to argue about KK in public is already written by me in my blog posts, apart from also the fact that, I keep an eyebrow raised at the suspect (and not all) Rafians always, so they see this battle-ground fully secured perhaps….and find no reason to hang around for too long….lol.

    Thirdly, I’ve seen over a period of time by analyzing my website stats that a majority of those hitting “Kishore vs Rafi” or “Rafi vs Kishore” (and also later complaining about the use of this “versus” term) are in fact Rafians. They have this tendency of wondering why others did also not appreciate their idol as much as they do, and not the other way around.

    Hmm…now do I sound angry in this talk as well? In case I do, you should know its true reason. My blog layout (which is basic in nature, anyway) has started giving me serious headache recently. I’ve been trying to sort its NAKHRAAs out for the last several hours now, and it spurs a newer issue each time I solve the previous one. Hope the following KK song helps you, this blogger and his nemesis, the NATKHAT blog template to make amendments quickly.

    http://www.radioreloaded.com/tracks/?5873

  29. ye to main jaanti thhi ki aap achha jawab dene waale ho,,par now I realised,,guru ke bhakta bhi Guru,,,,I gave u a Link to rafi sahab`s song that u can listen online on youtube n forget,,,,and u gave me a link,,,that I had to download to my harddisk(comp) and then listen…anyway Thankyou for the song,,,after listening tum bhi chalo,Rd burman Kishore kumar,,,Main ye kya sochi btau`n???,,,well, its ki kya ye RD burman bhi kitna stupid hai,,,ye gaana to Rafi sahab bhi gaa sakte thhey`n kitna achha….”,,,No offence,,yup yup,,YUP,,,eeske pehle ki aap mujhe kuch aisa kaho ki after which I would not be able to say anything I would like to say it was a joke this time(par aise baatey man me to aati hi hai,its natural u can understand),,,n ,nn…n ,nice song really…(its not fake -neutrality ,like someone, by my side while saying nice for kis kum song)..
    When I last entered in discussion here,about five months back u told about democratic solution,,,well, solution is in ur last reply,,,heyee as u say Kishore da more often,,why not say Rafi sahab also as freuently that u said once in early reply on this article…..whatever,,,u r discussion with rafians often go hotter,,,,but i`ve affirmed to keep u cool this time,,,,and u also,,I`m ur guest,,,so behave angry Young Man,,,(as its said guest r God-Atithi devo etc.)
    now,vs stroy,,i don`t know why noone answer about this to you,only i answer all time,,,,well, Rafi vs kishore is not exactly in mind of those who visit ur site,,actually,,,,ou ,u r kishore kum fan,,so must be thinking urself modern,,,,lets talk about modern technology,,,well, GOOGLE,,,google search engine has advanced such greatly that gone r the days when we remembered the name of any site,,,,its like saving name in cellphone and forgeting numbers,,,,,and we just type watch word on google and we get respective site,,,,,,,,Ab aap socho sir,,,,Kya kiya hua hai aapne,,ladai lagai hui hai ham bachare bhole bhale logo`n me ,,aap ka watch word hai Rafi vs kishore,,,well, when I wish to visit ur site,,,I don`t use vs but I simply write rafi kishore,i find 4th or 5th site is urs,,,,,

  30. I knew, Rafians would point this out sooner or later. A big NNNOOO…my use of Kishoreda is not to overtly eulogize or shower respect on him. I use it because it sounds sweeter, friendlier and more fluent to speak than Kishore Kumar or KK. Merely Kishore and Kumar wouldn’t be enough, as scores others might have the same name and title, but you could find very few Rafis on looking around….Rafi is almost a trademark of Md Rafi, the legendary singer. On the other hand Rafi Saheb sounds a little too artificial to be accommodated in my scheme of things. I feel bored the moment people start addressing famous entertainers with this adage. It may be fine for public debates and citations, but not for personal and informal chat like these. But, then I know Rafians, the traditionalists, wouldn’t reform, transform and adopt to newer ideas any sooner (pun intended….I feel sorry for the “misuse of my authority” charge Rafians still seem to direct at me), so I sometimes add Saheb just to keep them satisfied at the cost of my own creative dissatisfaction.

    If anybody can suggest any other adage than Saheb, which sounds more friendlier and respectful both, then I’d be more than happy to adopt it on a regular basis. I find Ustad more suitable than Saheb (like Ustad Bismillah Khan, Ustad Alla Rakha). On the other hand, Saheb can be used in numerous other ways, including to distinguish a person’s background and look down at those not from the upper stratum of society. I say this despite its massive usage in Hindi-Hindustani and Urdu. You should have expected this from an anti-traditionalist, shouldn’t you?! 🙂

    As regards to the reference of typing keywords with or without “versus”, I knew you would also say that. But why search for KK and Rafi chatters, when visiting my website in the beginning? Most of them come to my KK-Rafi posts in the start, with that aspect in mind. Now you could either say I was wrong in making assessments, or you could accept my charge of spamming with different nicks and declare, since your only true intention was to search for my threads, I’m wrong in speaking about Rafians in general. Kindly, select the options you may prefer. I can not lose this argument, I suppose. Sitting safely in my battle gear…lol!

    PS – Whenever I speak of Osho and KK, I see smiling, mischievous and helpful buddies as well guardians in them. Though, Rafi can not be seen from the same friendly elevation, as he and his music seem to be more of a soothing , smiling and holy experience than a shoulder thumping big bro in your home. I’d still prefer calling him on the lines of something like Rafi Baba. The purist might profusely hate me for this, but Baba sounds friendlier and more respectful both in comparison to Saheb. The grandpa in the family is also called Baba and so is the stoutly holy man (not the fake ones) whom you might know and admire. Then again, the adorable kid the next door is also refereed to with the same adage, in urban lingo.

    Come on Rafians, invent something that we Kishore Kumar Wallahs can also join you in praising about!

    A technical clarification : Whenever you visit and surf any website online, all information gets stored in your PC hard disk in a temporary folder. Media files from Youtube and Radioreloaded have no basic difference in this sense. They both stream audio and video files from their inbuilt players. It seems you failed to see the play button on radioreloaded.

  31. No dear ,,,no need of such a big ” no”…I told that causally,I don`t,personally, believe in forced admiration,,,I just told u as once u asked for a democratic solution…and also in against of word Vs,,Rafi is a sweet word,,,you can freely use it,I don`t know others but I personally never object as forced word r never real,,Now about Rafians,inspite of such a attractive catch word Rafians,”Rafian love to be called as rafi lover,as our realtion with Rafi sahab is not merely a entertainment,its something more than that,,,,,Ya i know every fan feel the same,,in south India ,during rajnikanta movie,,,,screening is paused for few seconds,and people do aarti(ritualistic worship) etc,,,,,in Bengal I`ve seen people of fan club adore mithun Chakarborti with flowers,,,,in Bihar, lalu yadav has lalu chalisa being read in front of his picture,and western part,Maharastra,,or so called marathi maanus,rather leave their carzy ness,,,,everywhere,fans and supporter behaves insane with egoism to show that their idol of adimration is greatest and some times its 100% political issue ,,,this is basic problem with we Indians not just some rafi sahab`s fan get impulsive even some kishore fans have been seen saying jai bhagwan ,or jai guru for Kish da,,its all about surface fans,,there r some real fans,,,though real Rafians adore Rafi sahab,they don`t always use the big word like bhagwan or master guru etc for him as declaration,its my observation,their feeling is like,,”masti me tumko khuda keh gya ab jammana ye insaf kadta rahe bhala keh gya ya bura keh gya,,,,”,its true,,, big words r habit in India so nothing to surprise with even rafian using that,,,but u know,,,there is really manything SAINTLY about Rafi Sahab apart from his divine voice in his real life,,,when a person really like Rafi sahab`s voice or anyone`s voice,,they go on serach more of it and get some stories apart from profession,,and then real search starts that go completely out of context,,,its something equivalent to,,as If I`m reading Pankaj`s blog everyday,,I started liking his writing that much that a interest came in me to know who is he really,,,that he is from Gujrat,n little more details,,it happens in every case when we like one thing about a person we search for more even in our daily life,well, simlarly,,after loving rafi sahab`s voice or in other case any celebrity may be sharukh khan,or himesh resamiya,,, we search something out of context about them,,and we find that these big celebrities are nothing different from us,,with the sense,,like lust,greed,money worshipper,jealous,frustrated,self praising,sometime dirty sometime good,,,but u know ( to me n few others like me) when searched more about rafi sahab,,we found,,a divine human being,,,such innocent,kind,shy, religious in true sense,and hard working person in glamour striken movie world,,,even a new cricketer after getting a couple of century and few ads go mad with ultra ego,,,how this man had such a low profile,,,,,it feels amazing,tht does this kind of person really exist…ou sory,i know u may think that A rafian is trying to sell rafi name over here,,,so I won`t say anything u may judge urself anytime,,who am i to say anything,,but what i meant to say is that the word feud and vs can never exist with the person like rafi sahab,,,,well fortunately,,,Kishore kumar was also good person with all carelessness had nice heart that can be observed by his voice,and many incident with Rafi sahab that started with a little ego of kishore da`s various aspect out of carelesnes and ended with tears in Kishore kumar`s eye that proves purity of later`s heart do vs can never exist.esp with these two..,
    Kis da was bad with bad but he could never be bad with good,,,,,so word vs shows that rafi sahab was not good as there is some vs with them,,,,but I know ur article don`t deal with difference between these two ,its little beyond that about fan`s psycho

  32. Heye don`t relate my reading for you is same as my reading for these celibrity,,as till now I`ve not tried to catch ur personal life ,,what we try to read in these celibrities by obseriving their daily activities is their mind and heart,,,and what could be best way to read heart and mind other than write ups,,,In this site almost every article is by you,and u reply every almost every post,,so ,anyone can get almost clear picture of kind of person u really r,,,and my observation is that u r not like these silly hollywood and bollywood celebrities,,,,,u r quite more familier and friendly,,hence,,we never feel awkward talking with u on entirly inversly to ur tase,,,thats is aboutRafi sahab,,that is always meant as against Kish da,,(and truly saying sometimes,,it is really against but but unintentionaly)

  33. Sneha, I use “vs” for warring fans and not the two legendary singers, as you know it as well. And I started using it only having watched them fight elsewhere. As regards to a few Rafians, such as yourself, disapproving with this term, I respect it as well. But, that is not going to change the reality of Rafi and KK fans in general. My aim is to look at this divisive tendency among them from a rational and intellectual point of view and to bring something good out of it. For example you have started posting regularly, and we are agreeing more often than not on issues we could have taken uncompromising stance elsewhere. It augurs well for Hindi music in general, and this blog’s continuation, both.

  34. Hey Sneha et all, I’ve set up the forum I’d earlier promised, where you can debate Rafi “Saheb” in the fashion you may wish to. I won’t be intruding there, unless of course needed to remove the abusive posts or to answer for my own threads in other categories:

    CHECK OUT BOLLYWOOD TIMES HERE

    Forums are empty right now and may take some time to populate. You will need to register to start your own threads or to make replies.

  35. ahh! very fine debate going on here,,,but only something thats missing is the sense of expression,,,when a person lacks sense of expression, condemns others but its the outer layer and on the base everywhere its love obstructed by external ego that my choice is best no matter whoever he/she is,,,,,,,,,…so for the sake of love towards one`s idol, and forgeting fans` personal ego by remembering Greatness of priceless gems of golden era music,,,,,,,lets forgive dear admin….
    Sir,who am I and who is other ??? do we stand anywhere near the name of Rafi sahab or kishore da,,,,,,so its not individuality that should be counted,,,If I say anything against anyone its my ignorance,,,,but Silly Rafians are not individual term,,,,Rafian means the lover of Rafi sahab,,,,so I feel they can`t be divided on such basis as the word Rafian is for rafi sahab not for we,,,,the watch word is Rafi–an comes later on,,,,,,,,,and if a person misbehave with this term are not rafian or a kishore da fan but simply egoist ….

    I feel Ashish, had just got a fragmented impression of urs without giving time to ur posts,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,otherwise he ought to have place his views in a modest way…..for he felt u don`t know music so have kis da as ur fav,,I don`t agree,,,but one side I agree Rafi sahab is much greater than what I or u can comprehend,,,,,,

    Anyway,,,,Rafi Sahab lovers or that of Kishore da…….I want to say something to both of u,,,,,I feel great to be adressed as a Rafian, and I `m Rafian for sure,,,,so if in my heart I feel rafi sahab best,,,,,I also think kishore kumar best,,,because if all other singers,,,kishore kum,,manna de,,,, mukesh,,lata man,,etc,,,would be bad and no singer atal then there wouldn`t have been any greatness in Rafi sahab,,,,I never like to make Rafi sahab king of begger singing at railway platform,,,I want to compare Rafi sahab with Tansen and Baiju Bawra and want to feel his greatness then,,,,,,,If kishore kum,lataji etc are one of the finnest singer it would enhance rafi sahab name,and vice verca,,and if Rafi sahab was one of the greatest singer it would enhance kishore da name and it would established kishore da as greatest singer as well,,,,,its our fortune that we had so many best with us…………….
    Sharing one of Rafi sahab songs for Rafi lovers and all…..
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LgkSnZhubM

  36. Yes, I’m surely egoist about a few things Sneha, and dealing with misbehaving individuals is one among them, specially with the ones who fret even before taking part in a debate and start distracting attention by targeting you personally, and even attempt to have a moral high in doing so. One should not take part in debates, if they they do not have the right arguments to put forth. But, calling debate or the initiator of this thread poor, is a defeatist sign, and a filthy one at that. Since, I’ve had more than a single Rafian falling in this category, I decided to use REMOVED as a general lingo. It may be incorrect politically, but not from the perception of my intentions. My observations says, whenever I’ve deleted strong comments that I was forced to utter due to one odd rogue visitor (and Ive done it always baring two occasions, since I can’t live peacefully myself by calling names to others, as I know they too have the same intrigity, respect and essence in life that I or anybody else might wish for), another similar misbihavior comes running my way. On the other hand, strong words keep unmindful comments at check despite leaving my blog’s own face blemished (in fact it also keeps some badmouthed KK fans at bay, since they do not see any point in visting my blog, as there is nothing more left to fight out). And until I had the luxury of hiring people to manage this website, I’ll have to personally look after each of these comments, so I do not have any other option but to be strict and highly egoist.

    Besides, I do not agree with your definition of what makes a good Rafi or KK fan. That’s your personal opinion. The reality is we can’t survive without “good” ego, one that keeps life functioing. It is the “bad” one that one should be wary of. One, that fails to respect what is being debated here. One, that targets people personally when bereft of newer and creative ideas. One, that uses nice words, but shows croocked intentions. My ego always errupts at such individuals, and I find nothing wrong with that.

    ===============

    PS – You have a right as a Rafian to suggest me how to handle rogue comments including the one I answered before you came here. But, you should also tell me how to handle the ten more rogue ideas that will follow in encouraged by my silence, if I did not respond the very first one. Keep yourself in my place, and think the time and energy you may have to spend, not just working at Rafi centric threads but also that about other singers you may not be too well-versed about. Yet you will have work to keep all sides at peace, and let me know how will you deal with the comments then, which directly slur at your understanding about music and Rafi both! And don’t tell me you won’t have issues since you won’t post this vs that threads. The rogue will still be able to hurt you by targeting your Rafi appreciation.

  37. the moment I were to say I won`t have issue for i wouldn`t use use vs,,..:-) I read ur next line in which u urself stressed on that……that there is no way out……..vs or not….,, sick can demonstrate their filth any how!!!! I agree 100% with u,,,if vs is like what u have in this site that has room for everyone,I owe u for ur work and the stress u go through by contributing to brighter side of loving music…and ego,,,yes,definitely urs is a ripe one,,,,,but why should we deteriorate standard of our good EGO for these few silly person….I never say u to behave as Bodhisattva,,because with that state of mind u won`t be able to run any public forum or site,then world will be of two moments but in our present state of mind,reply`ng is necessary,,because its been tradition in our county that person with good ego behave so soft that they r always over-ruled by evils and India faced slavery almost every century only because of this….but what I wanna say u,,say anything what ever u wish to, for the sake of keep noisy fanatics away,,,but Rafian a word related to Rafi sahab first,,then to those who love Rafi sahab(strangly its hardly related with person of bad ego with true motive),,If I love anyone my ego is dedicated to that person…
    Admin told me….”Besides, I do not agree with your definition of what makes a good Rafi or KK fan. That’s your personal opinion”…The best part of this site Pankaj sir is this,,,that for writing here we need not to be agree with anyone(obviously without any personal attacks),,,,so much freedom thats really admirable,,,I can talk freely one sidedly (ignoring completely other side) talk about my fav singer and ur replying me or other participants is like ur allowing space to everyone to have a healthy discussion to contribute golden era music..Thanx…so go ahead with ur counter-reply to personal attacks as this freedom is often misunderstood,,,,,,and hope to see that u`ll surly consider and think once again over the word “silly Rafians” not just politically but emotionally and practically….(if Rafian is related to Rafi sahab and those who love him,,or to the hater of music,or critics)
    Anyway, Happy Vijaya dashmi and navratra all of u(sharing 4 songs of Rafi sahab to wish every one- Jai raghunandan jai siyaram,Ramji ki Nikli sawari Ram ji ki leela hai nyari,,Tune mujhe bulaya serawaliye and Naam re sabse bara tera naam serowali of movie suhag http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bq_cK23h14c,)

  38. Done Sneha. I guess your presence is helping me have a balance that I would not have otherwise bothered about**, and annoyed many a decent visitors in the due course.

    (**since your sensitivity about the erased term does not make sense to this KK fan…the same differing schools of ideas, as stated above….lol…back to “this vs that” business, and how much am I relieved to do this!)

    Seriously speaking though, I might soon decide to close this thread for comments, as it seems to have lived up to what it was meant for. Btw, thanks for your impartial analysis and continued support.

  39. sensitivity about the erased term does not make sense to this Rafi sahab fan as well,,as Rafi can never be silly and I being Rafi fan is not silly as I don`t hate kk rather love him too,,when while driving,if I sometime miss at home my Usb or ipod attach to music systemt to listen Rafi sahab songs,,I opt to listen KK on FM instead of any other singer of today or yester years,,,,,,,(obviously ,I always wish to listen even Rafi sa`b`s numbers on Radio also but if Rafi sahab is not there,,KK is better than any other singer I feel,personaly)….
    If its KK site yodel something I don`t remember or Rafi sahab sites,,people attack each other personaly,,,,no matter even u close this VS,,,this kind of attacks will go on even without vs,,as u urself told,,,,,yes I`m impartial for I love Rafi unconditionaly and no reason to hate other singer especialyy Kis da rather admire kis da(truly),,,,…..
    However, This article,,works as a junction to fan group of both the legends,,,,,its only because of these comapritve analysis I knew that much about kk,,,and perhaps kK fan would also could have understood Rafi sahab even in parts….
    Great Job Sir,,plz continue here and else where…Thanking u….a Rafian(Sneha) requesting to a great fan(admin) of great Kis da…

  40. @ phani,
    Your comment moved to Kishore Kumar – The Undisputed King!…better suited for your debate. This thread has a different objective, which most Rafians seem to knowingly/ unknowingly overlook. I might have spoken in favor of KK,as a KK fan, but that does not lessen in any manner the scope of the debate even for Rafians here. Like you can always unplug the negatives about being overtly anti-traditionalist.

    sneha,
    We should agree to disagree about this. I do not regard any human being as an object of worship, be Rafi, KK, Osho, Mahatma Gandhi, Mother Teresa, or any other so called great virtuoso or a human being or a Saint. And therefore, do not find any harm in calling silly fans silly, whether they are Rafians or that of any other school of thought, including KK’s. I don’t see any reason for sane-minded Rafians or KK-ans getting offended due to such use of words.

    And that’s why I spoke of the fundamental difference – that of taking all things about life – among the KK-ans and Rafians above (of course, this was a generalization, which may not apply to each and every individual). Besides, this division may not confine to Hindi music lovers alone. The same tendency of disagreeing could be seen even among religious, social and political beliefs. This is but a natural phenomenon…and it surely wasn’t a war cry or announcement of the sustenance of one over the destruction of the other group as such. We all human beings get born with dissimilar DNA imprints, fingerprints, bodily features and ways of looking at life. Even among the KK-ans (or KK-ites, whatever) and Rafians, no two individuals could ever be regarded the same.

    I find this tendency of dissimilarity in nature, beautiful…I like the way nature conducts itself…always unpredictable! Have you ever closely examined the nature? I’m sure the sensitive person (not just the sensitive Rafian) you are, you must have. Then you must have seen the way branches spread out in sky, and the no-bounds manner leaves choose to blossom around you. There may be a pattern behind this foliage growth, but no scientific formula to describe it.

    At least, humans do not have the knowledge of any absolute principle running this show of nature, if there was one indeed. Yes, they can sense an absolute force controlling them (and “their divergence” – diverse tendencies and preferences – both), but nothing beyond this inference. But despite this handicap, they would madly try to make scientific clones the nature doesn’t seem too enthusiastic about (even the clones would not have the same identity, soul and persona as in the case of their master copies, I’m sure…this ain’t an attempt of looking down man’s scientific gains, though. Science has got its own sphere of influence and significance.)

    I appreciate Osho and KK as great talents, great figures, but surely not as objects of extreme reverence or devotion. I like them since I can snowball them too, if I chose. They are my best buddies before anything else. To make a long story short, let us agree to disagree about a few “silly” things, and smile to move on, only to come back armed with more arguments in this battle….yesss…I call this a battle, a friendly, entertaining and enlightening one!

  41. Inspite of being a great fan of ‘Kishore kumar’ firstly i would like to say that, those kk’s fans says offensive opinion about ‘Mohd Rafi’ it is a matter of great regret.’Rafi’ was such a singer of euphonic voice whoeverbornywood’ But it also true that his numberless melodies songs are getting obsolete day by day. I never listen his song, but i can only sayt the birth of playback singing was given by ‘Rafi’. in Bollywood who is internationaly known.
    But ‘Kishore kumar’ might not be internationaly known, still he was something beyond comprehension who accidentally came to the earth. His versatility was divinely gifted which he just utilized with his great efforts. The extreme modulation he used to with his incredible voice that was totally speechless. He could able to do whatever he like with his voice. I have’nt heard such accurate, heroic, full throated singing voice in my life. I hope no ne has heard too. ‘Kk & Rafi’ were almost belongs to the same period. can any one tell that kk’s voice reminds us which generations?? It is a voice of all generations. But Rafi’s voice reminds us the old generations.
    I should’ nt dare to say that, ‘Mohd Rafi’ might reborn as a someday, but ‘Kishore kumar’ won’t. Since it was said by ‘Raj Kapoor’ after his demise, “Even god is unable to make this person second time”

  42. Dear Anirban,

    The name Kishore Kumar will be remembered ‘internationally’ mainly for his extreme yodeling and falsetto capabilities in films like Jhoomroo. I have compilation of artists Orvon Gene Autry, Jere Sanford, Andrews Sisters, Jimmie Rodgers, Kenny Roberts, Francis Bebey and Kishore Kumar featured on the same audio CD licenced, mastered and released from UK, 2006.

    I hope this is useful!

  43. Dear Fubar

    Thanks very much for giving such artists name. I didn’t knew their name except ‘Jimmy rogers’ I heard his name in ‘zindegi ek safar’ documentary!Kishore kumar’ used to follow his yodeling. One thing i would like to say that, Kk’s rare songs should be released now. Even now also there are numerous rare songs, like ‘ye bheegi raat na hoti’ from the film ‘Humdard’,humari jid hai’, from the film ‘Pyar ajnabi hai’,the title song of this film,and his regional songs etc.I might be wrong but as i’ve heard that the hindi song of ‘Amar aandhar bhubane abar ke tumi’ should be in “zindegi ek safar’ documentary.But the song is not there. I can’t understand that why there is so much politics to release his rare no.. there is a website by ‘sanjeev tiwari’ of his rare songs, but the songs are non recordable. but if you check out any other site. every songs are recordable whether it is mp3 hungama or dishant. Is this not polotics…???

  44. You’ve said that ‘Kishore kumar will be internationally remembered for his extreme yodeling and falsetto capabilities! “Kishore kumar” left us for heaven is coming to be twenty three years. Do you think, still it should “WILL BE” to remembered or considered this incredible person as an ‘international’ singer! while “Mohd rafi” has been considered as an ‘international’ singer when he was alive! just look at the difference! i’m very curious to know the great difference of this matter. I’m aslo very curious to know that why the”Bharat ratna award” hadn’t been given to “Kishore kumar” while it had been given to “Mohd rafi!”! well… it doesn’t any matter of sorrow to the “Kisore kumar” fans whether “Bharat ratna award” hadn’t been given to him or he yet to be “internationally” remembered, since “Kohinoor is dazzling in dark also!” i just want to know the exact reason. As much the days are passing, his popullarity is getting uppermost! My age is 26+ now. Even our grand children aslo can’t avoid this magic voice like today’s generation!

  45. Baat nikal chuki hai to door talak jaayegi…….

    What you people think, Who is better :
    1. Ram or Krishna
    2. Amitabh or Dilip Kumar
    3. Sachin or Lara
    4. Nehru or Patel

    All are greats, no doubt. It all depends, apart from your natural taste, whether you are looking for the bottom line or the top line of their performance. I think, greats are of two kinds: one – those who wont go below a given level, come what may. And two – those who, on their given day or period, are uncomparable, in the class of their own. As you mentioned in your first post: Second catagory greats are the once who are never shy of experimenting, not afraid of failure, care a damn about the critics. Where as the ones in the first one are the disciplined ones, the purists.

    Both the catagories are different and it there would never be a concensus: as to who is better.

  46. Dear Anirban, the “Bharat Ratna” award wasn’t awarded to Mohammed Rafi either. He was awarded “Padmasree” in 1965. Lata mangeshkar is the only Bollywood playback singer to have received the “Bharat Ratna” award.

  47. Why waste time ? Can the sun( Rafi) be compared with a candle?
    If it was a comparison between Rafi and Lata , it would make some sense. They are almost equals, though Rafi little more brighter. Rafi’s comparison with any other male or female singer except Lata looks ridiculous.
    Any one who has basic sense of music will understand this.

  48. “Can the sun( Rafi) be compared with a candle?”
    No, but neither can a galaxy (Kishoreda) be compared with any runaway star/ sun either.
    “Any one who has basic sense of music will understand this.”
    Your sense of music is “very basic” indeed.

  49. do not argue in vain just hear the songs sung by both the singers like tum bin jaun kahan , janu meri jaan or geet pehle bana tha etc. you will clearly see how many times better kishore is than rafi. even god cannot sing any better ..kishore will always remain the all time best.

  50. Rafi can be compared to great singer like Manna Dey….but comparision with Kishore is just a waste of time….Kishore is way below the rank…he cannot be compared with any of those great singers ike Rafi-Mukesh-Manna-Talat…Rafi is best..no doubt.

  51. I’ve often noticed utterly foolish remarks being made by respondents, if I allowed even an odd or two negative responses about either Rafi or KK. Kindly, keep your mouth shut unless you had something intelligent and constructive to offer into this thread. I may soon close this thread for any further comments, unless that happens.

    Specially, those listening to AR Rahman, Reshmiya (both are mediocre to be precise) and others from the present generation of Bollywood musicians/ singers must keep their ineptness to themselves.

  52. It is really surprising to see Rafi sahab being compared to fairy tale singers like Kishore Kumar. He was an average singer , nothing special about him. Rafi sahab is an institution in himself. He is the parameter which can be used to measure other singers. Kishore and company wiil have to be born again to think of coming close to The Emperor.

  53. Guys, check out Russel Ahmed‘s statistics that led him to making the above comment. Wonder what was he smoking before googling for rafi vs kishore!

    23 Aug 02:11:44 PM Chrome 5.0 WinXP 1024×768 Mumbai,
    Maharashtra,
    India Reliance Communications (115.248.160.158) [Label IP Address]
    proaudience.com/2009/01/kishore-vs-rafi-debate-what-does-it-say-about-you/
    http://www.google.co.in/search?rlz=1C1GGGE_enIN370IN370&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=rafi vs kishore

    23 Aug 02:11:24 PM Chrome 5.0 WinXP 1024×768 Mumbai,
    Maharashtra,
    India Reliance Communications (115.248.160.158) [Label IP Address]
    proaudience.com/2009/01/kishore-vs-rafi-debate-what-does-it-say-about-you/comment-page-2/#comment-14506
    proaudience.com/2009/01/kishore-vs-rafi-debate-what-does-it-say-about-you/

    23 Aug 02:06:13 PM Chrome 5.0 WinXP 1024×768 Mumbai,
    Maharashtra,
    India Reliance Communications (115.248.160.158) [Label IP Address]
    proaudience.com/2009/01/kishore-vs-rafi-debate-what-does-it-say-about-you/
    http://www.google.co.in/search?rlz=1C1GGGE_enIN370IN370&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=rafi vs kishore

    I’ve yet to come across a Rafian that lands here not for any Kishore vs Rafi chatter. In contrast to that, most Kishoreda fans are least bothered about Rafians and their idol. KK fans are content with the music KK has left behind for them. The only reason for posting a thread like this one by a KK-fans website is the insecurity of Rafians, who keep on whining why Rafi wasn’t being considered the greatest by all. The net is full of that chatter, check out that.

    Btw, this thread is about the psychology of Kishore and Rafi fans and not that about any comparison of the two singers. You should be able to understand this basic aspect, if you had even the slightest of the needed grey matter.

  54. Before I learned classical music and did stage shows, I generally used to sing Kishore Kumar songs. Probably during that time I only admired Kishore and new bollywood singers.

    Later when I learned Hindustani classical, slowly I could appreicate the perfectness of Rafi’s voice and exact “sur” that he could hit with perfect ease, my respect for Kishore Kumar’s natural talent notwithstanding.

    Parallely, I realized how briliantly trained Manna Dey is and the really tough and classy songs he has sung, the natural vibrant of Hemant Kumar and also realized that Mahendra Kapoor also had the talent to be among the best like the ones mentioned above.

    Ideally these greats should not be compared, each was unique in his own way. However between Rafi and Kishore I can infer that even the ones who do not understand much of music would admire Kishore, his voice had that uncanny mass appeal. But these people might like Himesh Reshammiya’s voice also!

    Then there are people who understand music really well. They would appreciate Kishore and Rafi both but would probably like Kishore more because of that uncanny appeal that the great man had.

    Then there would be people who can sing well and perform on stage. They would admire Rafi and Kishore both, slightly tilting towards Kishore.

    But people who have learnt classical music and love bollywood music also would say that Rafi is probably a bit better in some ways, even though they would always wonder how someone could have a natural voice as good as Kishoreda had.

  55. rafi is the best……………. nobody can compare rafi saab……………………………one moon, one sun, and one rafi saab………………………………..his voice is very melodious………………………………………………………….rafi is great………………….those who dont know what is music, those who are rikshahwala, autowala, coolie they like kishores voice……………

  56. no one can compare rafi saab……he is uncompareble. and why are u rafis fan comparing rafi with a ordinary singer like kk……………. we are talking about rafi……mohd rafi. not a street singer like others. he is well trained and also god gifted voice………inface he is god. lata ji and rafi saab is a god of music……………………. sonu nigam, udit narayan, suresh wadkar, s.p , and others a big fan of rafi saab……………………….so please rafi fan dont compare rafi………. those who dont know what is music they comment against rafi in this poll…………………………….please be quite rafis fan…. those who are insecure about his idol they comment in this poll………………………………………………..rafi saab is greatest singer in universe……………no one can compete with him. he is shahenshah…………..and kishore is king……………

  57. Let me help you ‘dev’, since you seem to be highly lacking in the ability to convey yourself. When you say “rikshahwala, autowala and coolie”, you mean to suggest the lowest denomination of the Indian society. Which further tells, as per your own assesment, that your favorite playback singer did/ does not have any influence over vast Indian tracts. If a musician can’t even influence ‘coolies’ (in your own lingo, since I even respect them for their down-to-earth existence and views), then he should be a ‘Chowkidar’ and not calling the shots inside the studios!

    As far as I know, Rafi’s magic worked irrespective of all the social barriers, as did KK’s, hence exposing your shallow grip over music and its social ramifications, both. At the same time, what do you mean by ‘street singers’? As far as I know, a wealth of talent goes wasted across the Indian streets. But, to know that you must have something inside your skull, which I doubt you would ever have, looking at your call for boycotting this poll….This poll?! Hey bhagwaan!….There is a vast difference between a poll and a well-formulated debate, buddy! You need ‘AKAL’ to carry out the later!

    —————–

    PS – Can’t stop ROLFing, whenever I see Sonu Nigam, Udit Narayan, Suresh Wadkar, H Reshamiya and a few others that I don’t even seem to know being thrown around in Rafi’s defence. Rafi deserves better guys, please don’t demean him to such lows!!

  58. no one can compare rafi saab………………………….he is uncompareable……………. those who had no knowledge about music…………they only can say these things like u adna or adnin… who ever u are……. some people believe in god and some dont………………. and those who debate abour rafi with an ordinary dhobi ghat singer they are insecure about their idol…….. oh……….so sad bechara………………….but dont worry mad people say others that u have no akal…………..but people dont care about them……………………………….bye bye adnin………………………….u start giving gali galoch carry on…………….i will not reply u further………………………………….because dog barks people dont care……………………………….carry on………..why r u silent………………..carry on give gali…….

  59. dev, why should I abuse you? You need sympathy and not being abused around. But yes, I did laugh at your previous messages, and have also allowed your comments only so that the others could have some fun too. 🙂

    There is another KK-Rafi thread, which suits much better for your outcry. Even then, I wouldn’t allow any demeaning remarks about the two fan-followings, you should know that (remember the reference of ‘rikshahwala, autowala and coolie’ as a beginning). You need being taught some TEHZEEB first, before even being allowed to opine about KK and Rafi.

    “no one can compare rafi saab………………………….he is uncompareable……………. those who had no knowledge about music…………they only can say these things like u adna or adnin… who ever u are”

    Although in a very poor manner, you personify the Rafians I’ve spoken about in my above blog post. Have you ever heard of a ‘Kuen Kaa Medhak’, dev or devi whoever you are (I suspect you to be a devi, though, in the way you have been hanging around)? Beside, your language gives away your immaturity, which I pity at.

    ————
    PS – I wouldn’t even call you a dog. You are a CHEENTEE! 🙂 Of course, your unbecoming comments won’t be allowed anymore, whether you made one or not.

  60. Really liked ur article. I’m in the Kishore Kumar category. However, it should be noted, I am an 17yr old Bengali Hindu living in UK, so the bias will be there (Saurav Ganguly is my hero). However, i think as humans we all have our imperfections, Kishore Kumar wasn’t trained, and when he sang it was more than singing, it instantly connected to you. I grew up on his bengali songs (even though i don’t know Bengali or Hindi- I am a true “bideshi”) and the way he sang instantly connected with me when i reheard them at age 14/15. I think that’s the case of Kishore fans, theres something strange that we find compelling.

    Rafi MAY be better, i really can’t be bothered to argue (forgive me for this….) but i find a sizeable minority of fanatical Rafi fans have a religious bias, and so will not bother, though i really enjoy some of Rafi’s latter year songs (Chand mera dil, o hasina, and jaanu meri jaan) the last one was with Kishore, and i actually enjoy Rafi’s part more.

    I also lastly think, that Kishore Kumar was a mark of change (as u mentioned), both in personality and in terms of singing. With him, his fans felt the urge to go out and take on the world (hence my NRI affiliation). I feel this is why it is the young, head strong fiery youths that tended to go for Kishore Kumar

  61. A Saha, nice knowing we have a common ground as KK-ans, and that too from two separate generations (am 40+). Besides, you have a fairly good take on music and life at 17, must also add.

    I too occasionally like Rafi more than KK in a few songs they sung together, but that mostly due to the nature of compositions where KK has had little to offer as a performer. At the same time, it is the Rafians who think I’ve been demeaning their idol by writing these blog posts, which isn’t the case. For me listening to KK would be incomplete, if I decided to omit any other virtuoso, including Rafi, Mukesh, Manna Dey, Lata and Asha, from the bygone era.

    Leaving aside that I appreciate KK’s genre more than anybody else’s, they are inseparable for me as a collective music conscience. If I had the means and power to store KK’s songs for the posterity, I would also keenly archive that of the others, including Rafi’s.

    ———-

    PS – Why do KK-ans, including myself, like Rafi and Mukesh from their later years more often? Were it for better recording techniques or the growing mastery they had had over the playback singing, that I have not been able to conclude myself.

  62. I enjoyed reading your blog, although, the general comments on Rafi fans are really rude, as u put it.

    I am a hardcore fan of music and my personal favourite is Rafi sahab. I am brought up listening to Rafi sahab and Kishore da songs. But now when i recollect, and when i still continue to listen, Rafi sahab gives me the goose bumps which no other singers have evr been able to give.

    Rafi sahab’s versatality can be attributed to his classical training, which makes him invincible in popularity. Here again I appreciate the fact that Kishore da gave him a fair competition with his natural talent.

    I am not a person who generally comments on blog, but the degrading comments by my fellow Rafi Fans provoked me to write something to support the Legend whom I admire the most. (Madhuban mein Radhika, Duniya ke rakhwale, Mere mehboob tujhe…. I think these 3 songs are enough for Rafi to outsmart any other singer). Please note I am not referring just to Kishore da…

    P.S>. My liking for Rafi sahab has nothing to do with my religion. I am a Hindu by all means.

  63. There are two categories:
    1. Those who understand music and listen not only for the sake of Shayari ( words) but sur and taal also.
    2. Those who do not understand deep music but still love music and love what is easy to achieve.

    First ones will like Rafi and second ones Kishore.
    It is easy for anyone to sing Kishore songs, not of Rafi. if rafi songs are tried by an untrained singer, he/she will miss all difficult nodes. And the dream voice of Rafi will never come again. His presentation of song was superb… It is his insult to compare him with kishore.

  64. ‘It is his insult to compare him with kishore ….’

    Anurag,
    It is a stroke of bad luck and insult to have the music fans like you around. FYI, Kishore is the most difficult singer if somebody wanted to imitate him ever. I’ve found scores imitating Rafi to a very good extent, but never ever heard anybody getting closer to Kishoreda’s mastery. In fact, I’ve found it way easier to hum Rafi’s songs than Kishore’s all through my adult life. Hope the Rafians come out of their tiny worlds as soon as possible, for it is their senseless observations about the other virtuosos that evoke sharp reactions from the other side (even from those who like and respect Rafi).

    Also to all those, who cry hoarse about Rafi’s so-called training, please get over your delusions as soon as possible. A typical KK fan has more ability to understand if any musical training had been able to achieve its intended goal or not. What the heck would any training do if the audiences failed to be emotionally aroused? Music is an art form and not any mathematical formula to be taught and passed on by getting the numbers/ algebra right.

  65. To Rony who got deleted,

    You are simply a moron. Learn to read with logic and common sense and talk in a civilized manner, even before dreaming to contribute here.

  66. You should indeed be ashamed Rony,
    But for your uncouth behavior and not because of your dime a dozen fancies about the rest here. Ironically, it is those who abuse the right to have the ‘freedom of expression’ are the ones who mostly cry foul about that when challenged. Shows your individuality, which is why I’ve learned to keep my cool while responding to an odd Rafian of your category, since I’d be ruining my own threads by allowing and starting to respond in kind to your ilk. Besides, there will be a bigger casualty in doing so; that of opening a floodgate of abuses for Rafi, a possibility we could live without for sure.

    I’d still wait for the more intelligent Rafians to come forward and disclose the reasoning behind their appreciation for Rafi. Where do they stand in the social, political and individual strata? But I’m sure, none of the intelligent ones would ever want to search for the KK vs Rafi debates online – a hallmark of the majority Rafians landing here.

    To all others,
    Try posting your more caustic remarks in the other KK vs Rafi thread and you might have a better luck there. I have been allowing more blunt observations there, since I’ve made one myself by titling it Kishore Kumar – The Undisputed King! No allowing any unparliamentary words and expressions though, be cautioned.

  67. Sheer voice quality & natural talent of kishoreda vs technical perfections, high vocal range and smooth singing of rafisaab. But there is certain sense of everything in kishoreda’s singing: vibrancy, seriousness (strong rather than weeping style in sad songs), romance (unimitable unique style) and youthfulness. To say kishore fans are law breakers is a rather funny conclusion, as there are number of his songs based on classical mould and traditional instruments like tabla. Needless to say kishoreda was modest enough to accept his technical limitations, although he has taken some effortless harkats in many songs, indicating his natural abilities, as he never took any classical training

  68. To say kishore fans are law breakers ….

    How did you arrive at this conclusion? That is funny in itself!

    “They do not mind hijacking rooftops and throwing stones from there, if that brought back a redeemed world order for them.”

    Which is precisely what separates the anti-traditionalist from a traditionalist. A key differences between challenging the establishment, fighting for a change and breaking the law and order.

  69. admin, I’m revisiting this page because I thought of a similar kind of rivalry

    Kumar Sanu and Udit Narayan

    wonder what you can produce from these two singer’s followers

    I have noticed that there is a sizeable minority who will support Udit due to Rafi and Kumar due to Kishore

    sorry to derail thread, another debate which could be thought about

  70. Welcome back A Saha. Just when I’d started wondering, if I should close this thread for good, you dropped in again .. 🙂

    I’ve no idea about the Udit Narayan vs Kumar Sanu debates, but you know what …. I like Udit Narayan more than anyone else post Kishoreda’s passing away. He is the most gifted among his contemporaries. Besides, I personally dislike the Kishore kumar copycats having got used to his midas soundtracks.

    At the same time, I also rate Kumar Sanu’s Aashiqui among the best song collections, I’d the privilege of listening to post KK.

    It reminds me, I’ve yet to compile a song collection of the 1990s and 2000s, which I must take up as soon as possible.

  71. maybe this website can get you started, it is a VERY long list

    http://torrentz.eu/8508088f762cbaa3833b05bd2e97ee470aea19b9

    i’m only midway through the b category, it has made the competition between Sanu and Udit very close, as I’ve heard some songs I’ve never heard before. Was an Udit fan, but I think depending on the songs, it’s hard to separate them.

    There’s also a few nice Amit Kumar (and Kishore- though not his best, post 1985-2000) songs, who I’ve grown to liking, I know what it’s like to live in your father’s shadow, and it’s sad to see a career like Amit Kumar’s (who ironically was surpassed by Kishore’s clones).

    Anyway slight digression. there was a nice video on youtube, Mere dil uttar (Laal Paree 1990) Lethal1985, what could have been if Kishore had been in the 90s. We can only guess….

  72. Thanks for the list. I’ve already started googling through http://www.google.co.in/music. Incidentally, there is plenty of the music you may wish listening to, but not the same male playback in the 90s after KK has passed away. Sad to have the Gulshan Kumar blot on Nadeem-Shravan, since they seem to have given pretty melodious numbers.

    KK had some very average songs at his fag end – mostly due to what he would be offered in those days (a sign of that time and its music) – but he also would have a burst of his usual stuff in-between. He had once told an interviewer that it was becoming difficult and stressful to sing by the day, since he lacked the stamina he enjoyed earlier. And you could notice the effort he often did for his final recordings. I doubt, he would have continued to sing in the 90s, but a KK at his prime would have made a huge impact in the 90s, indeed!

    Amit Kumar did not have anything different to offer – his biggest handicap. He needed to deviate early from his own father, which he failed to do so.

  73. Hey Kk fans!! we shouldn’t waste our time to make such arguments with a subject! Rafians also wasting their time.. Arrey simple yaar!! whether anyone agree or not! No doubt, rafi is a great playback singer who is the origin of male playback singing! But Kk himself is a subject! Play back singing is a part of his carrier. He is a actor, music director, film director, producer, lyricist, dramatist, comedian, buffonery stage performer, serious, eccentric, depressing, polygamist, downright, moody, whimsical .etc.. All in all is an Interesting character. But Rafi is merely a singer like others. What kind eventful moments encircled with rafi like Kk…..??

    I’m telling a funny incident of Kk..’Once, rafi had a duet song recording with kishore kumar. Kk reached early, while rafi was late. Kk never needed to do rehearsal in that way what a singer suppose to do. So he was usually busy with his funny activities with other artists in studio. When rafi was about to enter through the corridors, he got startled while he listened that, he himself was singing inside while he was just entering. After getting inside he learned, Kk was singing in ditto rafi’s voice. Kk said, if rafi would n’t’ve come, he himself thought to sing the rafi’s part in rafi’s voice. So, this is ‘Kishore kumar’.(Sanghatik Lok chilo Bhogoban).

    You should’nt compare this person atleast with any artists! He is Expectional who mistakenly alighted in this earth for first & last time!!

    (“Remember, rafi is a gr8 gr8 gr8 artists who technically learned everything! But he is neither a untrained singer nor a Interesting character & versatile genius! This is the difference!!!!!”)

  74. how can u even compare those two?????????????????????????????????? its like comparing a crow to a nightingale !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  75. Jay, you are a joker and incompetent to be debating here. This is how you landed into this thread:

    (Statcounter.com entry …. having some issue hyper-linking the phrase he came searching for, but it could be noticed, anyway.)

    18 Aug 03:56:11 PM Firefox 5.0 WinVista 1280×1024 Maisuru,
    Karnataka, India Nib (national Internet Backbone) (117.201.201.75) [Label IP Address] proaudience.com/2009/01/kishore-vs-rafi-debate-what-does-it-say-about-you/
    http://www.google.co.in/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=N4f&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&channel=np&q=who is better rafi or kishore&oq=who is better rafi or &aq=0&aqi=g1&aql=&gs_sm=c&gs_upl=21552l21552l0l23656l1l1l0l0l0l0l98l98l1l1l0

    The only reason your comment is being allowed is, because I wanted the rest to have a glimpse of your mental ineptitude (funny that you call names to the past Hindi playback greats), since this debate itself deals with the psychological aspect of the KK and Rafi fans.

    @Anirban,
    That was funny, and a very intelligent way of hyping KK without dishonoring Rafi’s own stature.

  76. Hello friends,
    I had always been a Mohd. Rafi fan, since I was a kid. Like my parents and friends, I, obediently followed the tradition to listen and admire rafi and only rafi. His “Makhmali awaaz” was always a treat to my ears. I would sing his songs at the school and with friends. People liked me because I was eventually, if not easily. able to hit those “high surs”. I was admired.
    But, then I had chance to listen to Kishore da`s songs. I was moved! His voice was uniquely LARGE. The base in his voice was incredibly deep, unlike any other singer. His voice was inimitable. Such strong voice, reflected pronounced masculinity. His songs like ‘Hal Kya Hai Dilon Ka’, ‘Phoolon ke rang se’, ‘Aapke Anurodh Pe’ ‘Kuch To log kaheinge’ and many others, are great examples of his talent. You would see many singers singing Rafi`s songs, giving him a good enough tribute. There are sonu nigam, shabbir and many others who are fairly good at it. But Kishore Kumar was UNIQUE. No one in the world has such a tremendous throw and solidarity. AND now we can just IMAGINE what kishore da could have done if he was classically trained from his childhood. His voice would have broken the boundaries and CONQUERED the world!!
    The khanak in kishoreda`s voice was a god-gift and the almighty has not given even one-tenth of that charismatic resonance that kishoreda was rewarded with.
    Conclusively, I hope and pray that the rafi`s fans break their old bias for an hour and just listen to the songs I have recommended above! Do not banish kishore da`s talent without even weighing them fairly. And as for Rafi, he has been my guru, idol, teacher, god and always will be.

    Thank you.

  77. I perfectly agree with Mr. A Saha’s comments. Rafiji definitely had a sweet and charming voice but KK’s voice was no bad. Why do people not understand that voice is after all a gift of God, & NOT A PERSONAL ACHIEVEMENT. Its like Mukesh Ambani saying a beggar-“See I travel by personal aeroplane, you stupid have to go on feet.” Is it Mukesh’s credit that he inherited millions??(I don’t talk of Dhirubhai. Moreover I consiously DO NOT compare KK with a beggar, its just an example). Coming to the point, when Rafi sang he didn’t make any effort, while KK effortfully suited his voice to the type of sonh he sang. (Notice the difference in his throw of voice when he sang songs in diff. moods- E.g. Roop tera mastana & Mere naina saawan Bhaadaon, which we donot see much in Rafiji, even experts cant deny, I bet.) So it is the effort that we admire in KK, those who boast about Indian culture should know that efforts are admired, not gifts.
    Secondly Rafiji was trained. He LEARNT music from some source, KK had no learning on his part (It is analogous to the fact that Arjun is considered better then Eklavya, but Arjun had best teacher, whatever Eklavya was, he was on his own).
    In his time “AVERAGE” KK was the most paid singer, more then “GREATESTS” like Manna dey & Rafi, as mentioned by some semi-literate. Rafians, not to any one else, ask this to yourself- Would you ever prefer to work with an “AVERAGE” and give him more money, when you have available a “GOD”?? Why today mostly only KK’s songs are remixed, if Rafians claim a total versatility of Rafiji??
    (IT IS AN ESTABLISHED FACT THAT KK WAS PAID MORE THAN ANYONE ELSE, THAT TOO AT THE TIME WHEN BOTH MANNA DEY AND RAFI WERE ACTIVELY SINGING, I DONOT TELL OUT OF MY PERSONAL WHIM, MIND WELL).

  78. both are have different quallities but i prefer rafi than kishore because rafi could all types of songs he knew the all type of music his voice suit to everyone. but on the other hand kishore was also a good singer. but the first choice of all the musician was rafi

  79. Kishore & Rafi I would say that i agrre with those who say Rafi was incomparable. How can you compare a singer od Rafi qualities what a vast range he had. I would like to tell admin.
    To note following points. I am not just talking but giving you the proof.

    1. O Duni ke rakhwale & Man tarpat hari Darshan ko aaj.
    Could Kishore have sumg those sonsg or Bhajans . No body on earth could have imagined
    that the person singing ” Man tarpat hari darshan ko aaJ ” is a Muslim . He sang like a very learned Pandit. Full credit to Naushad ji also.

    2. could kishore had sang for Johny walker ” Sar to Tera Chakraye ” In Johny Bhai style.
    It was the single most greatness of Rafi saheb he could sing for a character in his style.
    He could sing ” :Hum kale hai to kya hua Dilwale Hain” IN Mehmood Haydrabadi accent.

    3. He could sing For shammi kapoor in the way shammi ji gives jatkhas and nakhras.
    It perfectlt matched him.

    4 Only singer who sang for 3 generations Sang for Grandfather Prithvi Raj Kapoor than his sons Raj kapoor, Shammi Kapoor & Shashi kapoor and then for their sons Rishi kapoor & randhir kapoor and I am 100% sure had he been alive would have sung for Ranbir kapoor. what a golden voice 3 generations changed . But the immortal voice remained unchanged.

    5 Thwn last but noy the least sang for kishore kumar what more can be said kishore could not siing the song “ajab hai daastan teri E zindgi:” given by shankar jaikishan and ultimately Rafi shaeb had to sing for kishore and that is ultimate for me. How can you compare both

  80. ‘How can you compare Rafi ….’ …. The most common refrain and defense among the Rafians online. What does it indicate? …. A sense of surprise and pity at the non-Rafians, or a knowledge about music among their ranks? Simply answered, nothing of this nature. If anything, it only describes how little do you know about music and how insecure you are made to live in a world of countless talents …. a slight nudge and your card-house is flattened! My above blog-post was dedicated to this very aspect among the Rafians.

    The same could be spoken about Rafi’s so-called ‘vast range’. It only bares the shell of ideas, emotions and life you have been confined to. Most of the ‘proof ‘ provided by his fans has little or no value in the eyes elsewhere; i.e. the KK-camp. In fact, he (Rafi) has sung much more and much better than most of you ‘half-baked’ learners seem to be knowing about him. Besides, you could always have several KK songs for each Rafi song that won’t have a match by the later. It’s an endless argument.

    ‘No body on earth could have imagined that the person singing ” Man tarpat hari darshan ko aaJ ” is a Muslim.’ …. You are highly confused, sunil Kumar. Does KK in ‘Aye khuda har faisla tera’ or the much famed qawwal duo of Shankar-Shambhu sounded like Hindus when they performed? Rising above the religious, social and personal barriers is the most basic aspect in the performing arts. The same about Rafi providing playback to KK too. It sounds more like a joke after having seen KK’s legacy as a playback singer, nothing more.

    Go through the following article by Sandipan Deb in The Indian Express – The King Is Not Dead – to know where Rafi (and his so-called vastness) stands in the eyes of the Kishoreda fans. A very apt analysis by Deb, I must say.

  81. Here is a better version of what I wanted to convey;;;;;;;;;/-]
    Kishoreda was a maverick. His voice had a eternal resonance and “Khanak” that was unique! Voice was uniquely deep and the throw, punch and power in his voice make him the most difficult singer to sing. Rafi was undoubtedly a fabulous singer but Kishore Kumar was pure genius. Here is an anecdote (story) I would love to share with you all.

    I had always been a Mohd. Rafi fan, since I was a kid. Like my parents and friends, I, obediently followed the tradition to listen and admire Rafi and only Rafi. His “Makhmali awaaz” was always a treat to my ears. I would sing his songs at the school and with friends. People liked me because I was eventually, if not easily, able to sings those classical numbers. I was admired.
    But, then I had a chance to listen to Kishore da`s songs. I was moved! His voice was uniquely LARGE. The base in his voice was incredibly deep, unlike any other singer. His voice was inimitable. Such strong voice, reflected pronounced masculinity. His songs like ‘Hal Kya Hai Dilon Ka’, ‘Phoolon ke rang se’, ‘Aapke Anurodh Pe’ ‘Kuch to log kaheinge’ and many others, are great examples of his talent. Kishoreda`s ability to sing such diverse moods and styles can clearly be witnessed in above songs!! Interestingly, just notice the change in timber and texture he brings singing these diverse songs- something which Rafi never did; he just sang with the same timber/texture. Kishore could sing all the way from his upper part of the chest like in “Aapke Anurodh Pe” (where his voice comes out with so much depth and yet, he doesnt run out of air!!), then his throat like in Hal Kya Hai Dilon (his vocal chord sounds like this huge rod with incredibly high radius!) and all the way up to his mouth in Pyaar Manga Hai Tumhi Se(where he just whispers and the romance spreads in the air!!). I challenge anyone to do justice to these songs! Kumar Sanu and Abhijeet just copy one little “pehlu” or “style” of Kishore`s versatilty (just make Kishoreda`s voice thinner by 50% and add some nasality in it and you get Kumar Sanu, Yodell-ish singing style that too with erratic consistency and you get Abhijeet). One little Rang of multi-coloured Kishoreda has made their lives!! Just think about it. You would see many singers singing Rafi`s songs, giving him a good enough tribute. There are Sonu Nigam, Shabbir, Mohammad Aziz and many others who are fairly good at it (who have even sung O duniya ke rakh wale, the hardest song Rafi ever recorded and infact, Sonu has done considerable justice) But Kishore Kumar was UNIQUE. No one ever had such a tremendous throw and solidarity. AND now we can just imagine what Kishoreda could have done if he was classically trained from his childhood. His voice would have broken the boundaries and CONQUERED the world!!
    The khanak in kishoreda`s voice was a god-gift and the almighty has not given even one-tenth of that charismatic resonance that kishoreda was rewarded with, to anyone else.
    Kishoreda, sadly, recoginzed his talent quite late, way after he was already dragged into acting by his elder brother, Ashok Kumar– and surprisingly enough, his acting skills are still admired. What a multi-talented individual he was indeed. But its sad that we lost him early.

    Conclusively, I hope and pray that the Rafi`s fans break their old bias for an hour and just listen to the songs I have recommended above! And as for Rafi, he has been my guru and idol and I always will be his fan. But Kishore Kumar was, is and will always be uparalleled!
    Thank you.
    Fazal

  82. @Fazal Ahmad,

    That is a very well-formulated tribute to Kishoreda. But to my knowledge, you are posting this for the third time, with one of them disallowed by my on a non-KK thread. Would love to read newer ideas from you, since you have the ability to put forth the finer aspects of Kishoreda’s genius.

  83. Hi admin,

    Its not about new ideas. Neither is it about posting my ideas on other threads. In my opnion, the soul of the matter is too grand to even consider trivial things like these.

    I really dont care about if people like my ideas or not. And non-kk fans apparently dont ever. So, their triviality kicks in. Why? They just run out of relevant answers. They just dont have any answer to my arguments.

    Infact, the piece you have written up here is marvellous. I almost had tears when I read how beautifully you`ve put it all together.

    But, we need to understand something here. Look, we are not doing this to prove a point or look down at non-kk fans. We are doing this to disclose and bring to light those great features that our beloved Kishoreda`s singing possessed and that some people dont tend to notice. Reason might be anything. May be those people are just too much in love with Kishoreda that they sort of enter a trance and ignore it. Or may be the other way round, that they prefer someone else and so deliberately, overlook those aspects.

    I will try to spread the word as far as I can. Well, anyways. So, did you understand what I said in my last post. If you wish to actually understand what I meant, then pls follow what I said. Go to those songs I have mentioned. Re-read what I mentioned and listen to those songs. Its a divine pleasure, I tell you.

    I so wish that Kishoreda was with us today. It would have been sooo great. I always wanted to meet him. Haha, it would`ve been fun. Infact, I would have requested him to sing with me. Fortunately, I can sing and I am not completely terrible.

    Well, what can we do about it now? And you pls go follow up what I said and listen to them. And come up with your opnions on views. I would really respect your take on it, admin.
    Thanks
    Fazal

  84. Nicely written, Fazal Ahmad. Obviously, I’ve listened KK extensively (and not just the songs you mention) and agree with most of your observations. My late dad had once told me that KK could even rhyme a letter, as if it was poetry and not any prose – so amazingly talented, he believed, the Bengali singer was.

    As regards to your emphasis on not looking down the non-KK fans, I’d remind you of my earlier threads, where Rafi is described as the Lord Rama of the Hindi playback – the one who was called Maryada-Purshottam or the one who acted in accordance with the morally upright living – while KK was the more colorful divine occurrence Krishna, who set his own standards. Although Rama is called Anshavatar (partial human manifestation of the absolute divine force), and Krishna the Purnavatar (complete manifestation), both enjoy the same absolute divine status in the Sanatana/ Hindu belief. How much more could the Rafians be made to feel at home?! But, they have still chosen to blame me for having degraded Rafi and even called me and KK names at times. So, I’ve stopped to worry about them now.

  85. i’m a bit late but its ok, i was just thinking that why someone will raise this comparison,it is not needed.
    i would recall your memories that one day when it was asked to Manna Dey about Rafi saab, he said rafi was the better singer any day,
    and why only Manna da when it was asked to KK once that what does he think of when his fans compare him against rafi,he humbly replied “only someone with no minds will compare me to a great singer like Raafi saab”.
    its well known that KK had always been the dominant singer of Pancham da’s compositions,but one day he cacelled his recording sessions with KK,as it was being difficult to KK to sing a semi-classical romantic number.(referred to wikipedia for more info).
    this clearly indicates that KK had a difficuty for singing semi-classical singing,as no one can deny Rafi had’nt.
    and why every time people prompt that KK is great coz he did’nt learn music?? i dont see any greatness in this,if you can learn its good but if you dont it was not barred for you.even to learn you need talent and skills.
    many people learn music but can everyone become Rafi? (no one can tuch KK as well)
    according to BBc Rafi is the Greast singer of bollywood till date,and by stardust Rafi was the singer of the millenium!!
    In one artical of the T.O.I.-In india Rafi’s voice is the considered as the voice of god!
    and one more thing if you wanna take openion poll,during Rafi’s cemetry there were moer then 10000 people witnessed it. it was one of the biggest condolence ever seen in the history of india.
    so my friend besides having a special corner for KK in my heart,i cant deny the fect that Rafi is the GREAST SINGER of all the times..!!

  86. Dear musiclovers and kishore fans,

    All gentlemen on this thread who are reading me, I want to bring something to light. You must have noticed that the kind of songs and music that are being made today. Its a shame. Quality music is dissapearing.
    I think the only way we can help improve the quality of music today is to educate our children with good quality songs. We should expose them to the khazana of music that our predecessors legends have left us with . I have noticed that youth today does not even know about legends like Rafi saab, Kishoreda and Mannadey. I mean, literally young generation doesnt even know the “names” of our legends. Infact, they find it old-fashioned when an old melody is played in front of them. Why? Thats because they have never been taught about these legends by their parents. Its very shameful.

    I think the only way is to expose our children with this quality music at an early age, so that they develop an interest and love for these legends. Its then that they would be able to understand that whats quality music.
    I hope all of you gentlemen here are with me for this cause. If we want to preserve our music and prevent it from getting effected by westernization then, we all need to do our duty and propagate this into the life of today`s generation.

    Thanks and Adaab!
    Fazal

  87. @vikram singh,
    Very boring indeed. Check out my answer to sunil kumar as a beginning, if you want to understand why it is so.

    “only someone with no minds will compare me to a great singer like Raafi saab” …. only the most mindless in kind would like to believe in that. KK’s humbleness could not be construed as the final truth. In fact, someone’s humbleness should not even be taken as a half truth. Btw, I’ve seen people quoting the same Pancham as describing Rafi’s playback highly lacking compared to Kishore Kumar. Whether he spoke that or not doesn’t matter In 2011. You need your own mind to grasp and debate music, and not what the others spoke regarding each other. Strangely though, I’ve yet to find a truly intelligent/ alert Rafian in my own KK vs Rafi chats. None of them could comprehend, for sure, what this particular thread was all about.

    @Fazal Ahmad
    ,
    Excellent thoughts! I’ve the same personal agenda behind my blogging and debating about the bygone era music. My aim would be to help galvanize support and the needed resources for achieving this target, if I could through my efforts in some manner.

  88. Kishore da’s voice had high bass. He was very good for low pitch songs. But this is a very small criteria to judge singing. And is the only thing in which Kishore was better than Rafi.
    So, some songs may sound better in Kishore’s voice.
    While Rafi was best when potential, versatility and mature emotions in the singing are compared.
    That is why, Kishore Da may sound better in ‘Jaanu meri Jaan’, ‘Ye sham mastani’ and few songs like this.
    But no one can imagine ‘Aji ruth kar ab’, ‘O duniya ke rakhwale’, ‘Na ja kahin ab na ja’, ‘Main jatt yamla pagla’, ‘ramaiah wasta waih’ and most of the songs in Kishore’s voice.
    And even Kishore knew these things. The great person, admitted himself when he was offered to sing ‘Nafrat ki Duniya’, that he cannot bring up the proper emotion required for the song. And its his greatness only that he suggested Rafi’s name.
    For a genre of songs, Kishore was best. He was a good singer with some special ability.
    But Rafi masters most of the abilities, when compared to other singers (not only Kishore Da). Sonu Nigam picked only a few of them and became a master himself.
    I like Kishore Da very much.
    But at the same time I agree with the fact:
    “If you are comparing Rafi with Kishore, you will realize someday or other that,
    If Kishore is 512GB, Rafi is only 250GB. But then, Rafi is a Laptop and Kisore is a hard disk only.”

  89. “Kishore da’s voice had high bass. He was very good for low pitch songs. But this is a very small criteria to judge singing. And is the only thing in which Kishore was better than Rafi ….”

    That is an outlandish observation, keeping in mind KK’s countless high-pitched renderings within his own bass range. On the contrary, his ability of invoking a vast range of moods and notes, was, in fact, among his key strong points. By that logic, the “effeminate and mournful voice” of Rafi, as so aptly described by Sandipan Deb in a 2007 article, should not have any significance either, isn’t it?

    Besides, the Rafians seem to often confuse about what the quality of being versatile means. It surely does not mean the count of moods and ragas one could sing, but the ability to do it so convincingly, and none would compare with KK’s vividness in this regard.

  90. Whatever you told about kishore da is correct upto good extent. But what you said about Rafi is totally wrong!
    When I was young I used to listen Kishore’s song very much. Even now I like many of his songs. Best thing about them is they are easily digestible. The thing you find effeminate and mournful in Rafi’s voice is what I like his voice for. Its called ‘Simplicity’. To bring up real and mature emotions you need the simplicity. Its the simplicity of the person, for which it is said Rafi can sing ‘I Love You’ in 101 ways. And its truth, but you need be simple like him to get that thing. You cannot bring up these things by jumping and laughing while singing.
    Friend one more thing, I dont listen to the songs while comparing singers, I listen to the singing only.
    I dont know what collection of Rafi you have listened to. Because, his songs are not only mournful. He has got so many joyful songs, the songs with real joy (not the childish and immature joy).
    Now I am sure that you would be liking the Kishore of 70’s the most.
    But I am fan of Kishore of 60’s and 70’s. I find him much better.
    Because, 70’s is the time when deterioration started and it is going on yet.
    If I was making a comparison like you are doing I would’nt have preferred Rafi or Kishore Kumar. Instead I would have preferred Himesh and Atif.
    Please, develop ears to find the real moods and notes.
    Sorry, but your analysis was baised. Otherwise you would not have made a comparison bw Rafi and Kishore, because its not acceptable only. (b/w Rafi and Manna De is somewhat acceptable).
    Listen to Rafi songs and you will find the comparison foolish.
    I have already told you that Kishore himself was a Rafian. And its not a joke, its the fact.

  91. Those of you who compare Rafi Sahab and Kishor Da are a bunch of retards.
    Both of them are unique, and they both have their own beauty. One should not compare them. How can you compare ‘Gulaab’ and ‘Rajanigandha’? For me, there is no way to compare these flowers as they both are unique in their own ways. So, those of you who waste your precious time comparing these incomparable singers/artists, individuals…. it is time for you to grow up a little, and learn to appreciate them both for their uniqueness and individuality.
    I love them both…..

  92. “Listen to Rafi songs and you will find the comparison foolish ….”

    asad, now since you have started degrading your language, it would be easier dealing with you. You are the typical ‘retarded, weak-hearted Rafi-wallah’, I’ve spoken about in my above blog post, who is so much out of touch from the common sense that no reasoning could help them ease out of their delusions. FYI, most KK fans hardly give a hoot about comparing him with anyone else leave alone Rafi. Neither do they care if any “aira gaira natthu khaira” is heaping praise on somebody else like the Rafians do so. The only reason you would be reading such threads in a KK-centric blog is your own tribe, which spams the internet crying foul if any other singer was being keenly debated and praised. I’d decided to have some fun with your kind when starting this blog, hence these KK vs Rafi threads. But while doing it so, I’ve also met some very interesting and intelligent people. Unfortunately or fortunately, most of them happened to be KK-wallahs.

    The 70s rightly don’t interest you, since Rafi was shown his right place during those years. Although, not the same lyrics as in the 50s and 60s, the 70s did have some of the most enthralling music ever produced by the Hindi cine industry. Beside, KK, Rafi and Mukesh, all three were into their 40s and hence at their peaks …. the 40s are always special in a performer’s life, as per my own observations. The degradation of the music and lyrics, both, was evident by the mid-80s though. And kindly do not talk about the simplicity of voice and the maturity of emotions. You lack the maturity to convey it yourself. Rafi’s unwillingness to give away the technicalities he had thrived upon earlier, was a key reason for his downfall in the 70s, when a more versatile playback became the need of the hour. Simply because Rafi couldn’t enter the characters he sang for without being aided by the “right” technicalities, didn’t make him any simpler by any and all means. I’ve spoken this earlier and repeat it once again that many KK-fans know the intricacies of Rafi much better compared to most of the Rafians, I’ve been across. Having been open to the newer ideas in life and music makes them more reasoned, as stated by me in my above blog-post. 🙂

    You are better suited to speaking only about Himesh Reshammiya and Atif perhaps, the kind of singers I’d rarely care for.

  93. I’ve been considering to close the KK vs Rafi threads for long, since very few insightful observations have been made in a long while. I’d like to extend the last courtesy of commenting to the Rafians though, so unless there was a strong provocation, I’d soon wind up these threads, and hopefully start the whole debate with a new perspective. It is up to the Rafians, if they wish ending on a friendly note or not.

  94. admin:
    Haha! Why are you getting so frustrated at my comment. In fact, my comment was not on your blog post, or on you. It is indeed very well written from your side. So cool down. I’m just commenting on some of the replies that I’ve read here. My ideas and words are not borrowed… thats just what I think. And I think that these masters shouldn’t be compared. You are not above them to compare them. And again, I’m not telling it just to you, but to everyone. And writing stuff like (EDITED SINCE IT IS IRRELEVANT NOW) only degrades you and your blog. So, grow up. Shayad aap ye nahin jaante honge, ki main khud Rafi Sahab aur Kishorda aur Mukesh Sahab se face to face mil chuka hoon aur baatein bhi ki hain. Thats my good luck that I was there and posted in Bombay. Aur ye tab ki baat hai jab aap shayad paida bhi nahin hue honge.
    Rafi aur Kishore dono apni apni khushbu bikherte hain aur kuch log sirf unhein compare hi karne mein rah jaate hain. Khushbu ka anand naihin hutha paate.

  95. @Ram,
    I’m not that young either, having been born in 1969. But leaving aside that, I warmly welcome you to my weblog. You have been a lucky person, indeed. And a very lucky moment for me to have been chatting with you, as well. Forget the previous (deleted) comment of mine …. that is part and parcel of the online hazards. I need to occasionally degrade myself to ward off the trouble-makers (and therefore the time-wasters). A very warm welcome once again, and hope to learn more from you about the three legends. 🙂

  96. admin, “degrading your language” is the thing you started with your very first reply.
    You seem to be frustrated. You blog post is well written but is biased as well. It is where a very poor comparison starts from. Its like being tilted towards one side, and trying to seek for more justifications online for something wrong.
    I would not have replied to your blog only, if I had found some honesty in your blog post. Because I don’t like to make such comparisons, myself. The indifference that made me reply is there because of your blog and many people looking for such justifications, that too for their jaundiced analysis.
    You simply like those comments which entertains you and pleases you, DOESNOT MATTER WHETHER THEY IS WRONG OR RIGHT.
    I dont hate people who say Kishore is Great or Greater.
    I hate those people who say Rafi was a bad singer. which I can find in your blog and your replies. And which is the wrongest thing ever said.
    You find only PROS for Kishore fans. At the same time you find only cons and con like pros for Rafi fans.
    You are simply biased and be fooling yourself only.
    I accept both the goods and bads about both the singers and result is the same Rafi is far better and complete singer.
    You accept only goods about Kishore and bads about Rafi, so I dont care what your conclusion is.

  97. ‘You are simply biased and be fooling yourself only.’

    There is a reason, why I called you a ‘retarded, weak-hearted Rafi-wallah’. It wasn’t merely a response to your personal insults, but a careful analysis of your behavior. You have the temerity of looking down the wisdom of the people, without suggesting why should that be accepted anyway. My ‘bias’ for KK is open (what is new about that), and so is my ‘frustration’ about only having to deal with the same single-eyed observations by the Rafians. But, it is more than my ‘bias’ for the fellow KK-fans, when I hail some comments more than the rest others. Check out for example, the sense of humor in Anirban and the sense of occasion in Fazal Ahmad. They both have traits beyond the KK vs Rafi fight, which is exactly what this whole thread was all about.

    Have you ever thought why did you like listening to a particular singer, musician or genre of music? It is not just the mastery of the performer, but also the social, familial and the individual backgrounds of the listeners, which decide the respective preferences. That, some would like KK and the rest others Rafi, Mukesh or Manna Dey, is but natural. Neither this makes KK the greatest singer nor Rafi. But, it tells something about the individualities we have, something I’ve been trying to explore through this debate (my bias for the KK-fans notwithstanding).

    The same about the issue of ‘comparing’ the two greats. Nobody is above scrutiny on this earth, provided you don’t have a closed mind or borrowed opinions. A critical scrutiny is a must for understanding oneself (It always helps to be contradicted) apart from the great performers. In a way, the fans end-up exploring themselves more than the virtuosos. For example, I’ve refined my sense of KK’s peers and predecessors by debating and compiling the various song lists in the last four years. This thread is not even 2% of the whole effort behind this blog. And the abuses heaped by the Rafians on this blog-post, not even a patch for the approvals on my Rafi song compilations.

    I tried to find out, but in vain, where have I personally insulted you in my first comment. Or for that matter, Rafi in my whole blogging. Which brings us back to the original point why I called you (and the Rafians) weak-hearted or highly insecure. Any attempt to question Rafi was being taken personally by them, and responded alike.

  98. My grand mother is fan of Kishore da. My father is fan of Mukesh and my mother is fan of Rafi. I am surrounded by equal no. of Rafi and Kishore fans. Familial and Social backgrounds!!!
    You can find my name in your blog i.e. ‘asad’. For you it is ‘admin’. Weak hearted and insecure!!!
    I can also make protocols like:
    1) KK Fans like to enjoy hypothetical life. They are always too away from reality.
    2) They are very weak and are afraid of accepting the reality (if in contrast with their
    assumptions).
    3) They lack dominance, always look for support from someone for their views. A beta
    character.
    4) Immature, the cause of above three.
    5) Lack logical thinking, have special quality of finding fun(hypothetical) in every situation
    and every thing.

    But I know these classifications are insignificant. Especially in the case of Rafi fans. As he was such a versatile singer (and not bounded to single genre), that some people like him for this quality and some for that quality. And there is no scope of classifications.

    what I dislike is biased approach of some people. I have also replied to those people who try to being partial with Kishore in some other blogs. I found your views extremely jaundiced. Sorry, I didnt know what was your intention behind that. But now I know as, you have told me now only that you are seeking for humor in the replies. Suggestion: Take some humorous topic, instead of “Kishore vs Rafi Debate”.
    like:

    A clean desk is a sign of a cluttered desk drawer.
    Experience is something you don’t get until just after you need it.
    A clear conscience is usually the sign of a bad memory.
    Everyone has a photographic memory. Some don’t have film.
    A closed mouth gathers no foot.
    Consciousness: That annoying time between naps.
    Ever stop to think, and forget to start again?

  99. There is a sea of difference between ‘a sense of humor’ and ‘humor’ …. ‘the ability of’ and ‘responding to’ (stop googling for the humor titles btw, have some originality). Does it make any sense to you? There is a huge difference between writing under an ‘assumed name’ and a blog wholly laden with the blogger’s identity, his purpose and his signature. And I’m not even trying to draw your attention to the header carrying my name. But if you can’t read that name, how would you understand what signature I was able to stamp through my blogging about Hindi cinema music, so leave it!

    ‘I found your views extremely jaundiced’

    You have failed to logically counter me until now. The only inference to be made out from this sickening repetition is, that your whole world is jaundiced.

    Any ideas to support those inferences …. the ones you listed out? How is a person ‘weak and afraid’, who dares you from his rooftop, while the ‘genius’ who can’t even read names, leave alone debating in a logical manner (count the number of times you veered off while chatting), the stronger one? Do I even need to go into the rest of your observations? How old are you, asad? You are the best example of ‘the time-wasters’, I had spoken about with Ram earlier.

  100. Rafi is best. No male or female singer is near to him. Rafi is the only male singer who can sing LOVE songs both slow or fast. Rafi is most versetile and his voice variations is fantastic.Rafi can sing any kind of songs and he is best in all type. I would request our Govt. to preserve 26 thousand songs of Rafi

  101. With a Rafian pinakesh having made his last point, I shall close this thread for any further comments now. Hope to see you making more objective and constructive remarks in future.

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